Health & Safety and Training Questions - Get the right info

[MileHighScouter]

Hi. I've spent the last several years as chair of our District Training Committee and training Health & Safety Courses and all other Boy Scout Training. I've noticed that there are lots of myths, "unwritten rules" and other issues pertaining to health & safety, Guide to Safe Scouting, and training matters. I hope this topic will help to clear the air and get out straight answers

[nldscout]

So whats your opinion of the right info?

[MileHighScouter]

Depends on the issue. What's your question? My idea of the straight answers are the ones found in the GSS and other pubs, but a lot of folks either don't know they exist, or have heard that there are "exceptions" or "unwritten" rules. So, what's your issue?

jim

[Hal_Crawford]

Getting the straight answers is difficult in part because BSA does an awful job of writing policy. In the G2SS they often fail to clearly define their terms and they often use the word "should" when they may mean "must". They use the word "guidelines" when they probably mean "rules". Sort of like the Pirate's code from Pirates of the Caribbean... "its actually more of a guideline".

 

What is "backcountry" or "wilderness"? When does a "hike" become a "trek"? G2SS uses these terms but does not clearly define them. Like the congressman who said he couldn't define porn but he knew it when he saw it, we all probably think we know what these things are but this forum is full of threads that demonstrate that we do not all agree.

 

There are apparent contradictions because of this vague use of language. "All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult..." Where does the backcountry start and how does this affect patrol camping that is not only permitted but encouraged?

 

What is "high adventure"? The new Health form includes special requirements for high-adventure but again, it is not clearly defined.

 

Many think that there is a rule against sheath knives. In fact it says they should be "avoided" and that they are "unnecessary". Some camps prohibit them. Any wonder there is confusion? IMHO they should either prohibit them (with specific exceptions if there are activities that legitimately need them) or drop the reference to sheath knives all together.

 

Frankly, I think the G2SS is the product of an unholy compromise between those who would like a rule for everything (probably lawyers) and those who really don't want any rules that might cramp their style or change the way things were done by BP, Greenbar Bill, the old WB and\/or the troops they were in when they were boys. The result is a series of guidelines many of which can be interpreted as rules or ignored as suggestions with equal validity.

 

I would be happy if the G2SS would a) clearly define its terms, b) clearly indicate when something is a rule or when it is a recommended best practice and c) try to maintain consistency with other BSA documents such as the SM handbook.

 

I would love it if this forum could "clear the air and get out straight answers" but I doubt that is possible.

 

Hal

 

 

[MileHighScouter]

Hal Crawford wrote: "Getting the straight answers is difficult in part because BSA does an awful job of writing policy. In the G2SS they often fail to clearly define their terms and they often use the word "should" when they may mean "must". They use the word "guidelines" when they probably mean "rules". Sort of like the Pirate's code from Pirates of the Caribbean... "its actually more of a guideline".

 

COMMENT: First, you are correct, the GSS is written by committee, with updates that are not well placed or organized (especially with regard to special rules for Cub Scouts), and mostly no lawyers are involved (jokes aside, writing rules is their profession). But, the GSS is in fact "Rules" and "Policy" and "Guidelines". The bold face type is a RULE (see for example the list of "Unauthorized and Prohibited Activities"). These are written as declarative statements. POLICIES are stated as descriptions of broad areas and how to proceed. For example, see the heading "Project COPE Activities, which says: "Project COPE (Challenging Outdoor Personal Experience) low and high course elements are intended to be used in conjunction with a council activity that meets the current Project COPE National Standards, No. 20-172. Units may participate in age-appropriate initiative games, but under no circumstances should attempt to construct low- or high-course elements." Finally, there are GUIDELINES which are rules, but are stated in a manner that allows implementation as closely as "practicable". These are the things that look like rules but are in the lighter type face. For example, in the first chapter under the header "Youth Member Behavior Guidelines" the following appears: "Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored." That's a rule but written to allow the unit to figure out how to implement it, hence it becomes a guideline.

 

Hal Crawford wrote: What is "backcountry" or "wilderness"? When does a "hike" become a "trek"? .... Where does the backcountry start? .... "What is "high adventure"?"

 

COMMENT: This is a good example of the problem with the GSS, often it is subtle when it means to be informative. In the Section "Wilderness Camping" the first paragraph refers to the "Passport to High Adventure" publication. OFTEN the GSS references a place where the details and more nformation is contained. Sometimes it reprints it all. For example the definitions and uses you are mentioning here are elsewhere, but you are directed where by the GSS. On the other hand, things like Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense are actually reprinted in full in the GSS. The choice has to do with volume and the most often needed/used information.

 

Hal Crawford wrote: "Many think that there is a rule against sheath knives. In fact it says they should be "avoided" and that they are "unnecessary". Some camps prohibit them. Any wonder there is confusion?"

 

COMMENT: I agree. But the BSA sold imprinted sheath knives for 50 or 60 years. They are unlikely to ban them. However, they are telling the user to prohibit them at the Council (summercamp) or unit level. OR have a special activity / training to teach proper use and provide an opportunity for use. The GSS should not be viewed as a "don't" manual, but a "how to" manual. The GSS almost always provides a way for aboutg any activity. By the way, you will note that the word "hatchet" does not appear in the GSS, nor in the Tot'n Chip requirements. So, even though the BSA sold hatchets for 50-60 years, some things are too dangerous not to ban.

 

Hal Crawford wrote: "I would love it if this forum could "clear the air and get out straight answers" but I doubt that is possible."

 

COMMENT: That is exactly what I hope to foster! thanks, Ol' Buffalo, jim

[scoutldr]

In my paying job, I deal with reading and translating government regulations. In fact, I've written some of them. The words "should", "shall", "must", "may", "rule" and "guideline" have standard specific legal definitions that the BSA should become familiar with. OSHA, for example, will write a regulation, and also will post online enforcement guidelines and letters of interpretation in response to inquiries. They will also publish a "preamble" to a regulation that thoroughly explains the rationale and thinking behind the language in the rule. It would be REALLY helpful if BSA did this.

[Hal_Crawford]

I had not noticed that hatchets are not mentioned in G2SS or Totn'chip. We still teach and use hatchets in out unit. How are we to interpret the omission of the word "hatchet". Perhaps since Totin'chip says "Use knife, ax, and saw as tools, not playthings."we can infer that hatchets may be used as playthings;-).

 

Really, have hatchets been banned by omission? If so, shouldn't they say so? I am trying to imagine telling our SM (who is on a much deserved vacation) that we need to stop using hatchets because it is specifically omitted. I think my head is going to explode.

 

Hal

[MileHighScouter]

Hal, ban on hatchets? Well, if they are not mentioned in the training syllabus for ITOLS (Boy Scout Outdoor Ldr Tng), not in the Tot'n Chip, not anywhere in the BSA handbook, and not in the GSS, my position as a trainer was that they are not authorized for use in our units. Same as banned? No, banned is in the Unauthorized and Prohibited activities section of GSS. But then, swimming without proper supervision is not allowed, not banned.

 

Anyway, I think, both as a leader and a trainer, that they are so dangerous as to be worthy of leaving home.

 

jim

[skeptic]

Mile High;

 

Would have to disagree in regard to hatchets, and even axes. They are no different than any other tool if used as intended. Proper safety and precautions should be learned, and violations should result in the individual not being allowed to use.

 

On the other hand, small saws are often all you need in today's camping environments for downed wood prep. In exceptional cases, use of an axe is called for. Certainly they should only be used by senior scouts or adults, and even they should have had proper training first.

 

Use of wood tools is important in many scouting activities. And, on occasion, they also have uses outside of scouting.

 

JMHO

[MileHighScouter]

Hi Skeptic,

 

Well, if the BSA has decided to ignore hatchets, and take all mention of them out of all requirements for use of wood tools, then I think the first issue is Scouting use. I see no need, hence no need to allow or teach. A hatchet at the end of the day requires one to get too close to the legs and to put a hand on the work to be struck with the hatchet. That's too dangerous.

 

I agree, once upon a time, we all lived in houses with fireplaces, etc. But we don't know, and kids don't learn to whack a chicken neck (although wringing is better)or make kindling for the stove or fire.

 

As for woods tools, no argument I teach them all. Including the Paul Bunyon. That's my favorite trick question, to show the class in ITOLS a double bitted axe, and then ask if its ok to use in the BSA!

 

jim

[Hal_Crawford]

Mile High:

When I took IOLS about 7 years ago they did demonstrate the use of hatchets although I remember the trainer saying that he thought that BSA would eventually ban them because of safety concerns. I checked and the word hatchet is not used in either the Scout Handbook or the Scoutmaster's Handbook in use at that time so perhaps the trainer was off base.

 

If the BSA does not want scouts to use hatchets then why don't they say "the use of hatchets is prohibited"? Like the issue of sheath knives they take a non-position. Seems kind of passive-aggressive don't you think?

 

Hal

[nldscout]

I didn't have a question at all, especially since your stating your the expert with all the answers.

 

But I note your "Opinion" on if hatchets shout be allowed.

 

Thanks for the "Opinion", but its not the right answer.

[shortridge]

OK, I'll start by addressing the apparent urban legend that hatchets are somehow unauthorized.

 

MileHighScouter wrote: "By the way, you will note that the word "hatchet" does not appear in the GSS, nor in the Tot'n Chip requirements. So, even though the BSA sold hatchets for 50-60 years, some things are too dangerous not to ban."

 

Sorry, but you searched for the wrong word. The modern term is "hand ax," not "hatchet." That term IS included in the G2SS (p. viii, in the age-appropriate activities chart). And the BSA STILL sells hand axes today - two types, in fact.

 

See: http://tinyurl.com/an8wfa or http://tinyurl.com/cu3wnu(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Hal_Crawford]

Shortridge:

Thank you for clarifying the hatchet/hand ax issue. Mile High had me going there. I will now retrieve the hand axes from the dumpster ;-).

Hal

[MileHighScouter]

Hi guys,

nldscout wrote: Senior Forum I didn't have a question at all, especially since your stating your the expert with all the answers. But I note your "Opinion" on if hatchets shout be allowed. Thanks for the "Opinion", but its not the right answer.

 

COMMENT: Never said I was an expert, go read the first post.

I'm still right, and now you know why I said what I said about sheath knives above. Never said the BSA didn't sell hatchets. What I said was

 

1. No mention of Hand Ax, Hand Axe or Hatchet in BSA Handbook.

 

2. No mention of teaching Hand Ax, Hand Axe or Hatchet in Tot'n Chip Requirements.

 

3. No mention of the Hand Ax, Hand Axe or Hatchet in the ITOLS syllabus, which is the principal outdoor training materials for all adult Boy Scout leaders.

 

4. I searched to find a use of hand ax or hatchet. I found that the GSS appendix chart in 2003 said that "Axe, Hand Axe" were approved for Boy Scouts and Venturers. However, the current GSS appendix chart says "Axes" only.

 

The point I was making was safety. I have no respect for the supply division, after all everthing they buy is now made in China. However, like the sheath knife, the scout stuff folks may sell it, but no one is saying its safe or good or prudent to let your boys have it. Since the GSS is the safety policy I wouldn't want to be the one on the witness stand in the following exchange in the lawsuit over a missing finger on a promising pianist:

 

Q: So Mr. Scoutmaster, you had a hand ax in the scout trailer and you let the scouts use it whenever they like?

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: And on the day in question, Johnny set up the ax yard and used the hand ax and cut off his finger.

 

A: Yes.

 

Q: Can you point to a single document, anywhere in scouting, that trained you to train boy scouts to use a hand ax?

 

A: No.

 

Q: Can you point to a single document, anywhere in scouting, that trained you to train boy scouts to use a hand ax?

 

A: No.

 

Q: Can you point to a single document, anywhere in scouting, that said that it was policy of the BSA to let boys hand axes?

 

A: No.

 

Q: But you went ahead and let your scouts play with hand axes?

 

A: They weren't playing, they were using them!

 

Q: Ok, so can you point to a single document, anywhere in Scouting that says its ok for boy scouts to use hand axes?

 

A: No.

 

Q: So, Mr. Scoutmaster, do you have any explanation at all for the jury about why you let your boys play with hand axes?

 

A: Yes, the BSA still sells them.

 

Q: So, Mr. Scoutmaster, your testimony is so long as someone sells a product legally, its suitable for boys to use on campouts?

 

A: Well, yes.

 

Then we skip to the closing jury argument:

 

So, ladies and gentlemen, you heard about the "supervision" provided to Johnnie. He was 11 years old. You heard his teachers say he was another Sergei Rachmaninoff. You heard that his career as a pianist is over - at age 11. You also heard that the Mr. Scoutmaster's idea of safety for boys is "that if its sold then its ok." Yep, that was the quality of supervision on that day, a SM who believes that alcohol, cigarettes, porn are all ok for boys on camp outs, just like playing with hand axes. I submit that there was no real supervision that day, and that Mr. Scoutmaster was grossly negligent in letting the boys under his care play with hand axes.

 

OK, SO WHAT IS THE POINT? That a bunch of us old farts like hand axes and want to play with them? Or that they are safe? Or that the BSA is sending two different messages: first, BSA stands for Buy Stuff AlltheTime; and second, don't teach or use hand axes.

 

I never said the BSA always makes sense. But teaching boys and allowing them to use hand axes makes no sense to me as a Scout leader -- and remember, if you are out of policy on the GSS, then the BSA's liability insurance won't defend you.

 

So, you choose. But that's what this thread is all about. Discussing and airing training and safety issues. I'd say this issue got aired well! thanks all for participating.

 

jim