Eagle92 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Ok I've been wary to get into this conversation since I am a former pro having worked as a DE and Scout shop employee. But here is my $.02 worth. 1. Please remember that all pay in the BSA is pay for performance. Sometimes you have great pros who bust their butts doing their job. I've had friends who left professional scouting and doubled their salaries, and in one case tripled his BSA salary. Two of the folks were recruited by their District chair or Finance chairs to work for the chair's company. So if for me the talent argument is viable. Heck I've had folks question some of the things I've done as a pro when I was younger because most 20 somethings had not had the level of responsibility placed upon them unless they prior military. Are their bad apples in the professional corps, heck yeah. Sometimes they get weeded out. And unfortunately sometimes they get promoted. 2. There is a lot of behind the scenes work that few to no volunteers see when it comes to a pro's job. Lots of meetings, lots of activities, lots of time away from home. one example is the SDE who has been covering my district, his district, and another district. He bought a new car last February and already has over 102,000 miles on it in under 11 months. 3. Because of all the time away from home, there is a lot of stress placed upon families. I've seen more good pros leave the profession because of stress to the family life than I can count. And yes it was one reason why I left the profession. In less than 3 months of marriage, my wife wanted to divorce me becasue of the job, and she dated me while I was a DE and knew what to expect. I've had friends who wives left them, including one guy who was married three times with all ending in divorce. 4) In addition to the family stress, for some there is personal stress. I've seen coworker have a nervous breakdown, and heard about a former co-worker having one. All job related. All the above is related to council folks. My national experience is the following 1) Not everyone working for national is a "commissioned" professional. Commissioned professionals are those who have gone through PDL-1 and have served as DEs, etc. national will hire outside folks who are experts in their field, i.e health and safety, IT, etc. Because of the high demand for some of these jobs in the private sector, BSA deos need to be competitive in pay. 2) National employees do alot of work that is outside of Irving. You got trainers going all over to conduct training. You got division heads and their staff traveling all over to help local council problem solve their challenges. Again there are things that the pros do that few to no volunteers see. But without that hard work, there would be serious problems. Now Sctldr does bring up a good point on membership. After seeing what some of the ethically challenged pros have done, I have always doubted the membership stats. One thing that I am glad that Williams did is institute the verification process. I think that is a very good start to solving challenging membership. Another thing is the background checks, again it insured the safety of our youth and prevents membership issues. I think the current numbers are a more accurate reflection our organization than previous ones. I firmly beleive that you will see membership growth occur, just not in the huge spurts of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 As a former DE myself I have to agree with scoutldr, all pay should be based on performance whether you are the Chief Scout Exec or a lowly DE. Clearly with diminishing membership and contributions during Roys tenure he hardly deserves the large packet he received, his performance would be rated substandard by any corporate measure, and it does not and should not matter how long he was a scouting pro. Quid pro quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 "Pay for performance" is exactly what is WRONG with the BSA. Membership numbers are what leads to the "ANYTHING BUT SCOUTING" mentality of BSA professionals and then trickles down to Wood Badge suck-ups. I'd be willing to INCREASE executive compensation if all BSA millionares were in the mold of James West, who hired William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt and at LONG LAST forced the BSA to FINALLY accept the Patrol Method. Without James West at the helm, BSA executives began to dismantle the Patrol Method with White Stag manager fluff LESS THAN TWO MONTHS after Hillcourt's retirement! We need another iron-fisted dictator to drag Wood Badge kicking and screaming away from its CEO superstar theory and back to Hillcourt-based Patrol Leader Training. Kudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 That explains why my uniform cost $100 and books are too expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 >>We need another iron-fisted dictator to drag Wood Badge kicking and screaming away from its CEO superstar theory and back to Hillcourt-based Patrol Leader Training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMT224 Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm still waiting for ScoutNut, John-in-KC, Eagle92, & BadenP to explain what Roy did to deserve the millions WE paid him! You guys seem to think that his pay is linked to performance, so his compensation is a-ok... well, what the heck did he do? Personally, I think that money could have been used for better things! I completely agree with Kudu - enough with the corporate BS! The Wall Street model has proved it self useless. Back to the basics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Not sure what all this has to do with the Patrol Method. What is preventing Scoutmasters from teaching the Patrol Method in their local units, and what does that have to do with the CSE's compensation package? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm not going to explain. I'm a volunteer on a District level, and well below the Key 3. I have a friend who is on the Council Executive Board, on the Compensation Committee. They set targets, and pass them to the Exec Committee. The Executive Committee signs off on those recommendations, or doesn't. Every member of the Executive Board and Executive Committee is a volunteer. I trust them to do the right thing. I get to have the occasional friendly cup of coffee with one or two of them, I know in my case they've had long talks with the SE. Volunteers set the compensation packages of the CEO, COO, and CFO. I trust them. BTW, Jim Terry, the current CFO, was my last SE. He recapitalized the Heart of America Council. He's good people and worth every dollar he makes. If he were on the motivational circuit, he'd not be in 6 digits, but 7. So, if you want to complain, get to a position where your voice counts. Otherwise, it's time to take care of the youth entrusted to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 "I'm still waiting for ScoutNut, John-in-KC, Eagle92, & BadenP to explain what Roy did to deserve the millions WE paid him!" You may be waiting, but you obvioulsy are not reading. I believe I have made my position very clear. I do NOT work at the National level. I am NOT a volunteer on the National Board. I have no knowledge of everything that falls under Mr Williams's job description. I have no knowledge of what EXACTLY he did during his 30+ years as an employee of BSA. Given all of that, how can I possibly make a determination on weather he deserves his compensation/retirement package or not? However, the BSA National Volunteers who set his compensation seem to think he deserves what they gave him. I trust that they know the facts better than me. You keep stating that his salary and retirement benefits should be taken away and used for something else. What else should it be used for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm a volunteer again, so I don't know what Williams did exactly. But I do know of the challenges on the local level, and can just imagine the ones on the national level. Since the background checks on volunteers and the membership confirmation process ( or whatever it is called) came into being under his watch, I'm going to give him credit for that. Yes we may have lost membership on paper, but I've already stated how I feel about that. To me that is a big plus as a I did have to deal with that issue as a new DE. THAT was the biggest reason I switched to supply. I think Kudu may have a point, not necessarily in having another West as CSE, but in a return to program, i.e. patrol method, activities, etc. I got the reputation of a "program freak" because I am a firm believer in that a quality program will attract people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 SMT read my post again I did not say Roy deserved the compensation he received, quite the opposite. As a pro my first SE was Bob Mazzuca so I also experienced what he did to our council and know what he is capable of doing in his new position, hopefully he has learned from his past mistakes, nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMT224 Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 ScoutNut, John-in-KC, Eagle92, & BadenP Thanks for the replies & comments. John-in-KC Im sure the local level compensation packages are well thought out and the hard working folks deserve what they get. Im not so much complaining, but attempting to start a dialog what appears to me an excessive amount of compensation at the national level. ScoutNut Im a volunteer too, and I too do not know what Mr. Williams did to deserve a 1.5 million dollar retirement package thats why Im asking. I not saying take away all his compensation, but simply to consider what the BSA didnt do because that 1.5 million went to Roy and not into Scouting Programs. Eagle92 Im sure the challenges on the National level are incredible, what with the almost constant attacks on Scouting. Perhaps Roy deserved what he got. Im a volunteer too, and know, as we all do, plenty of folks that do an amazing amount of work for Scouting and receive no monetary compensation. But when we are told that times are hard and money is scarce and we all need to buck up, and then someone on the National level gets a huge package, you got to wonder why. BadenP Sorry for reading your message wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 "I not saying take away all his compensation, but simply to consider what the BSA didnt do because that 1.5 million went to Roy and not into Scouting Programs." What kind of Scouting programs should/could have BSA National office done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 OK, for starters: They could have applied that money against the annual Council Service Fees (3.5% of total Council salaries), and allowed the councils to keep that money for local program use. They could have reduced the cost of uniforms, publications and awards. They could have offset the revenue lost from publication sales while they put everything on a CD and let registered members print them at will. For starters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMT224 Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 What would I reckon National should have spent the money on instead of giving it to Roy...? Hard to say not knowing what they didn't do because of lack of funds, but off hand: - U.S. made uniforms & supplies - infrastructural support to BSA summer camps - camperships - updated merit badge books and other guidance - training - PR Anyone else? What would we spend millions on if we had it? Another question... where did the millions for Roy's salary come from? Were Councils forced to log their summer camps to pay for Roy's 1.5 million retirement package? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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