Council Lost Adult Training Records 5 Times in 8 Years --> Incompetance?

[Overtrained]

Dluders,

 

I'm sorry to hear about the request from "Council" to update or resubmit your records. I have been there, done that and solved that.

 

I won't tell you what I think you should do, because I don't know. Because of volunteer/professional dynamics of each council, each are managed differently and anything I might suggest may not work in your situation

 

As such, I will let you know how we solved this issue in the hopes that it might give some ideas for your situation. When I say we/us, I am only talking about my council and its team.

 

"Council" is all of us, not just those that receive a paycheck. We're all one team and work it that way. Per the "Leadership Training Committee Guide" each district training committee is responsible for training inventories and records. If there is a discrepancy between their records and those of scoutnet, they correct it.

 

Now there have been times when the district says the records were turned in and yet scoutnet still shows untrained. Often times we found that there are duplicate registrations of a person and this confuses the situation. We also find the person thinks they are trained for what they believe is their primary registered position, but it is actually their duplicate registration and not their primary. Technicalities, but important. Those don't matter to the scouter who believes the record is wrong. We have found usually about 70-80% of the time, there is no error. In those cases, we educate the scouter why it is what it is and work to solve the issue. Might be correcting some registration issues, I missed course not known about or an error. Doesn't mattter, it gets solved to everyone's satisfaction. I cant remember the last time we got a salaried scouter to solve the issue other than direct data entry into scoutnet.

 

There are some methods we've adopted to insure accuracy and customer satisfaction.

At various council events, like University of Scouting, we have an area where a scouter can check there record on scoutnet. If they find an error, it is corrected. "A scout is honest". That correction is sent to the District Tng committee for their notes. Anytime a district conducts training, they're attendance roster is emailed to each district training chair to obtain information on scouters that went to another district for training. The last one is many districts are using Automated District Management System (ADMS) designed by Troopmaster. At each roundtable and most any other district activities, they have the training list for each unit so leaders can check the accuracy there too.

 

As volunteers in training leadership positions, we are the customer service and the buck stops with us, not at scoutnet or the office.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cordially yours,

 

Overtrained

Army 04

Scouting. Good For Life

[dluders]

This weekend, I will fill out my council's record card (along with photocopies of ALL of my training records YET AGAIN), and personally hand-deliver the entire package to the council. What choice do I have? After all, the form letter everyone got basically BLACKMAILS folks into compliance:

 

"I am writing to remind you of the new training requirements for adult leaders in the XXXX Council....Effective December 31, 2008 [i.e., the Rechartering deadline], all unit "top leaders"...[and] 'direct contact leaders', including Assistant Scoutmasters, are required to be trained. Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters are required to complete all of the following courses to be trained for their position:

 

1. New Leaders Essentials

2. Scoutmaster and Asst. Scoutmaster Specific Training

3. Outdoor Leader Skills

 

...Our records indicate that you have not yet completed your training."

 

SO, no record of training in ScoutNet --> no rechartering as Scoutmaster or Ass't Scoutmaster.

 

I still haven't heard "Bob White" acknowledge the concept of BACKING UP data. The council doesn't have to "round file" my card or photocopies when they get them; KEEP THEM. They don't have to trust ScoutNet entirely yet again to keep the training data; make a SCREEN PRINT (Control-Print Screen) of the ScoutNet page and copy that screen print into Microsoft Word or PowerPoint. Doesn't BSA National BACK UP THEIR DATA? I don't see Scouts' merit badge dates, Eagle Scout records, etc. getting lost out of ScoutNet; only the ADULT LEADER TRAINING module apparently is faulty.

 

The U.S. Air Force (for which I've been working 26 years) has more personnel than the BSA, and they're deployed all over the world. USAF active-duty personnel move all the time, yet we don't have a problem with lost training records. We've had faulty, USAF-unique data management programs come and go, and THEY GOT FIXED or REPLACED with something better.

 

In the 21st Century, why can't the BSA employ standard computer database management techniques? BACK UP THE DATA.

 

I thank everyone (except "Bob White") for their assistance in this matter.

[Bob White]

You are one angry fellow, and I hope that is working better for you than your posts suggest.

 

Best of luck to you and the scouts you serve.

BW

[John-in-KC]

He has a right to be upset. Whoever in his Council has charge of uploading data to ScoutNet, didn't.

 

There's an easy way for BSA to fix this: Put a training record module in MyScouting. Allow US, the volunteers, to see what is in ScoutNet for us. Then, we can take discrepancies back up the line... and get them fixed.

 

Of course, that would mean the IT shop at National, the Council Solutions Group, and our Registrars would actually have to do some work.

[shortridge]

I know I said I was done, but I kept on reading and now am a bit confused.

 

- BW said, in talking about councils' roles in recordkeeping: "They do not have to do this."

But training recordkeeping is no longer a district function, right? If the councils don't do it, does it revert back to the individual?

That seems to be what's happening here. Individuals still have to provide councils with their information, despite councils having taken over the recordkeeping function. The difference between council and district recordkeeping seems to be that one did not have to doublecheck the district records every year - you could rely on the volunteers like BW.

 

- Eagle92 says councils cannot opt out of Scoutnet.

Yet the letter dluders received from his council clearly says that his council is abandoning the database.

If the council is still inputting information into Scoutnet but using a reliable off-the-shelf system for its own purposes, I would send a bouquet of $100 bills for the clerks who are now going to develop serious carpal tunnel syndrome double-entering all that the data.

[Bob White]

I am all for backing up data. As I posted when I was the District Training chair I took all the attendance sheets from the courses held in the diistrict and put them in an ecxell spread sheet. I also sent info to the other district training chairs iof a scouter from outside the district attended one of our courses. The council Training Chair sent us copies of the Council training attendance sheets so that we could keep our local records updated.

 

I am all for backups, but you will notice that we did it with the volunteers for that particular committee, What are the training committee volunteers in your districts doing to help with the situation?

 

 

[resqman]

"First I am not saying pass the buck. I am saying that if you are have a problem do more than just complain about."

 

But you are saying pass the buck. It is not the fault of the local office because they are simply typists. It is not really the fault of national, they simply have a database that is complicated. It is a complicated database so we should expect it to be faulty, not just once but most of the time. Phaft! Databases can be complicated to set up initially but to maintain them is relatively easy. You back them up periodically. You build in data checking and error checking. You periodically send the data to the end users for confirmation. You dont lose data.

 

"First, have good priorities and be able to tell big problems from little ones. Certainly as someone trained in rescue you must understand that. You need to know what issues are important and what ones are not. To make as big a deal out of such a minor issue is silly."

 

Ah, minor issue to whom? If my unit cannot re-charter because all my leaders have non-existent or incorrect training records on file, then it is not a minor issue. If I am spending my 1 hour a week convincing BSA that all the leaders are trained, I dont have that hour to spend with the scouts. I am prioritizing my time to work the big problems. I want to spend time with my unit and less time cleaning up someone elses mess.

 

"Second, React appropriately and proportionately. Since the problem is not with the councils data entry but with the software at National, and considering the PD's open and honest letter explaining the situation, I don't think you can call Dluders behavior appropriate or proportional."

 

I believe he is reacting proportionately. If they had lost his records once, not a big deal. If it was only his records, then there is probably a duplicate record or some other minor bookkeeping error. When they lose all the records for all adults 5 times out of 8, it IS a big deal. He has overlooked their incompetence numerous times with minor grumbling. You have to stop accepting complete incompetence at some point. I believe he has waited long enough.

 

"Thirdly, Be helpful, with people who are trying to help you. Remember that until fairly recently this responsibility was the individuals not the council's or national. They do not have to do this. This is being done as much as a service to us as it is a benefit to the BSA. So let's work together on this. The bugs will get worked out. It is not as if it has not gotten better, or that it is the same problem every time. This is a very elaborate data base that draws from and feeds into other data bases, and sometimes the communication fizzles."

 

But it is the same problem every time. They have lost his training records 5 times. Yes, they do have to do this. They took on the responsibility of maintaining a database. The very concept of a database is data that can be retrieved in a reliable manner. I have 25 years of IT experience managing Fortune 500 database systems. My employers expected the data to be there and it to be reliable. If not, then significant amounts of money were at stake. He was helpful 5 times already. Now it is time for BSA to be helpful and stop losing records by correcting the system.

 

"Finally don't make things worse. Refusing to send a couple of dates so that they can try and fix the problem with your own record is immature. Dluders may not be a part of the problem but that doesnt mean he should irritate the problem further."

 

He is not being immature. He is being responsible. The only leverage against the incompetence is to call upon management to fix the problem by raising a big stink. The bigger stink he makes, the more obvious it is that they are incompetent. Someone will be embarrassed enough to actually do their job right and fix the problem.

 

"If dluders really needs his once of blood from the office staff over this then he should go for it, and he should be very grateful that no one in return will ever come from the council office for their pound of flesh over the much larger problems in the unit he leads."

 

Excellent misdirection! Because the whistle blower is not perfect, we do not need to listen to him. Even if Dluders is the absolute worst unit leader in the world, he still has a valid argument that BSA is doing a very poor job of maintaining records and since BSA agreed to take on the task of tracking records, they should do a better job.

(This message has been edited by resqman)

[Bob White]

One does not need to be perfect to be competent wouldn't you agree resqman?

 

There are plenty of things that are done by the council offic and by the National office that they do just fine. It is unfortunate that you and a few others see this one compter glitch to be enough to post on-ine that they are incompetent. My point to dluders was that in the grand scheme of scouting which is a more important task? If a computer program that is not functioning properly is enough to throw around the claim of incompetence then what word describes the management of a unit that losses over 50% of its membership in just a few short yearS? And Yet!!! has any office staff in dluders council posting claims of incompetence against the leaders of the unit he serves?

 

I'll bet not. Why do you suppose that is?

 

I never said the situation wasn't frustrating, It just seems ovious that a few folks are not coping with the situation in an appropriate or proportionate manner.

 

If this is how he and others react to a very minor and easily dealt with situation then how can they possibly deal effectivly with things that really matter, like the failure of a unit to attract or retain youth.

[David CO]

Kind of makes you wonder how secure our personal info, SSN's and the like, really are?

[OldGreyEagle]

"Kind of makes you wonder how secure our personal info, SSN's and the like, really are?"

 

Don't they have to have the information on file before someone can steal it?

[David CO]

OGE,

 

I honestly don't know.

[resqman]

One does not need to be perfect to be competent wouldn't you agree resqman? Agreed

There are plenty of things that are done by the council office and by the National office that they do just fine. It is unfortunate that you and a few others see this one computer glitch to be enough to post online that they are incompetent. My point to dluders was that in the grand scheme of scouting which is a more important task? If a computer program that is not functioning properly is enough to throw around the claim of incompetence then what word describes the management of a unit that loses over 50% of its membership in just a few short years? And Yet!!! has any office staff in dluders council posting claims of incompetence against the leaders of the unit he serves? This one computer glitch that has been ongoing for 8 years shows that the IT staff for BSA are incompetent. It shows that management is incompetent because they have not applied enough resources to repair this problem. Could it be that no one has complained with enough vigor to help them understand the problem?

 

If a computer program that is not functioning properly is enough to throw around the claim of incompetence then what word describes the management of a unit that loses over 50% of its membership in just a few short years? And Yet!!! has any office staff in dluders council posting claims of incompetence against the leaders of the unit he serves? I'll bet not. Why do you suppose that is? Misdirection again! The whistle blower is bad therefore his argument must be failed. Does not matter if the whistle blower is good, bad or otherwise, the problem is still a problem.

 

I never said the situation wasn't frustrating; it just seems obvious that a few folks are not coping with the situation in an appropriate or proportionate manner. Appropriate and proportionate in your value judgment. Some of the battles you have decided to adamantly champion on this website seem very trivial matters to me. I sometimes deemed your responses inappropriate or out of proportion to those problems. And yet instead of demeaning you, you were allowed to have your various rants. Bob Whites way is the only way.

If this is how he and others react to a very minor and easily dealt with situation then how can they possibly deal effectively with things that really matter, like the failure of a unit to attract or retain youth. Once again, misdirection. Regardless of how good or bad a unit leader the whistle blower is does not change the validity of the argument.

 

[Bob White]

The term "Whistle blower" suggests he is somehow the first person who knew of the problem, or that it was some sort of secret. He isn't, and it isn't.

 

What I was showing was the proprotionate importance or seriousness of the two problems and how the office staff has fortunaltely chosen to be far less condemning in their words and actions with dluders then dluders (and others) have chosen to be with them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutldr]

"SO, no record of training in ScoutNet --> no rechartering as Scoutmaster or Ass't Scoutmaster. "

 

My response would be "go ahead...make my day." Then I would let the SE explain to my COR why my registration was being refused. Just like working with kids, if there are no consequences to bad behavior, it is likely to continue.

[Twocubdad]

That, Scoutldr, is the issue and would make my blood boil, too.

 

This is my gripe with 100% training requirements. Before you threaten to refuse recharter to an individual (and potentially a unit) a council better be dang sure they have their ducks in a row. In most situations training records are not a huge deal and consequently a high priority. But it's the council that's raising the stakes.

 

Secondly, if the council understands that they have a problem with training records, as the followup letter from the program director suggests, the original letter requesting the info was out of line. Given the problems, a much more contrite approach -- acknowledging the past problems, asking for help and minus the threat -- would have probably been better received. This one sounds like something one would receive from the Division of Motor Vehicles.

 

Being courteous, helpful, friendly, etc., goes both ways.