Council Lost Adult Training Records 5 Times in 8 Years --> Incompetance?

[Bob White]

So shortridge, you are saying that you believe that if you caused the office staff an extra 10 or 15 minutes of work each year that you would expect them to get on the internet and blast you for being incompetent?

[shortridge]

No, that's not what I said, and please don't put words in my mouth.

 

What I said was that I can understand the frustration dluders and others clearly feel about problems with Council-level recordkeeping.

 

If I were a problem-prone Scouter of the sort that that I described, I would expect the professional staff to feel the same type of frustration, and to communicate those feelings to try to solve the problem. That's what dluders was trying to do here - to get feedback and perspective on the position he has taken.

 

He chose one approach to try to solve the problem - to make noise, in the same vein as the proverbial squeaky wheel. There are certainly other paths that could be taken. I'm certainly not seeing I agree with it.

 

The problem with my analogy of my invented paperwork-losing Scouter, of course, is that lone clueless Scouter only creates 15 minutes of work for the Council staff. But when the Council staff messes something up, it creates 15 minutes of work for hundreds or even thousands of volunteers. And then it snowballs when those Scouters have to re-submit their old paperwork back to Council - creating even MORE work for the underpaid, overworked folks there.

 

One tiny issue can have a huge impact when it's all added up.

 

Everyone's time is valuable. But the Council staffers do get paid for theirs.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Bob White]

Fine be frustrated. But there are a lot of ways to deal with frustration. Certainly posting that the office is incompetent and refusing to take a few minutes to provide a couple of dates is not a reaction that reflects mature leadership.

[dluders]

Here is the entire, unedited text of the reply from our council's Program Director (who sent me the form letter, and to whom I complained yesterday):

 

"I very much appreciate you taking the time to express your frustration. For years our council, like almost all other councils in America, have utilized a national BSA database to track all training records. The data base I am referring to is great for a variety of useful applications. However, the component that deals with tracking training records has been very inconsistent over the years. Our support staff has done their job correctly, they have entered your training records, I just looked you up a few minutes ago. For some reason when we ran our reports to show untrained leaders you are still listed. I dont have any explanation for that. We have gotten in the habit of reviewing those reports before we send out mailings like the one you just received. With the volume of names however, it is inevitable that we will miss some of the errors.

 

"Enough explanation, Im sure that you are looking for a solution. Actually, before reading your email yesterday I was in a lengthy meeting. We spent quite a bit of time talking about the very issue I described above. We have made a decision as a council to abandon the use of the national data base for the tracking of training records. We are going to begin to utilize our own tracking system. One that is far less complex, yet much more focused on meeting our specific needs as a council when it comes to tracking training records. With the volume of data entry that will be required to make this transition, it may take a few weeks to get this done. You are probably thinking that this change is long overdue and that would be a valid point.

 

"I want you to know that we are committed to getting this right. It has never been our intent to badger our volunteers with letters about completing training that they have already completed. I apologize for sending the letter and not catching it as I was signing them.

 

"Feel free to call me or email me any time to discuss this further or if you need assistance with anything else.

 

"Thank you." [& signed with his first name]

 

SO, does any other council Scouter out there have problems with the SAME "national BSA database"? If so, maybe your council should discard it too.

[Bob White]

Yes my council has had the same problems, and no they cannot just discard it. It seems that you Program Director has been very open and honest with you and has explained that the problem is not with the poeple you chose to malign in your posts.

 

I would suppose that since being courteous and kind there will be an apology posted soon and that you will cheerfully send the office the information they requested. It would seem that for now the matter is resolved. I am sure the PD will appreciate your patience and understanding.

[evmori]

Perhaps the problem is that some charter organizations are choosing adults who get angry over trivial things adults. So the council has lost his records 5 times. Lets say he has to go out of his way for 15 minutes to correct them. The fellow has had to take an extra hour and fiteen minutes during the last EIGHT YEARS to keep his training record straight.

 

Explain to us why this is worth him getting bent out of shape over?

 

Time has nothing to do with it! Neither does the CO. This is all about competency! If the council can't even keep something this simple straight, what are the chances they are losing other records, too? I'd say pretty good! But then again, it is always the fault of the volunteers!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[dluders]

I still believe it's a matter of competancy. The council "professionals" has known about the problem with the danged national BSA database program, but they stuck with it anyway. You know the old saying, "Three strikes and you're out"? Well, it took 5 strikes to get through to our council staff that "Gee, we have a problem here" and to FINALLY do something about it.

 

You take an Excel spreadsheet, populate the data, BACK IT UP on a cheap $15 thumb drive, and you're done. No more lost data, no more telling the same Scouters EVERY YEAR that their training records are lost and that they must retake the training yet again.

 

SO, what other councils are having the same problem? CHECK IT OUT. There's probably a lot more "data" being lost than merely the Adult Leader Training dates. How about "Privacy Act of 1974" stuff, background checks, etc.? I cringe at the thought....

[Rythos]

"SO, what other councils are having the same problem? CHECK IT OUT. There's probably a lot more "data" being lost than merely the Adult Leader Training dates. How about "Privacy Act of 1974" stuff, background checks, etc.? I cringe at the thought.... "

 

 

Given the fact that it has the potential to damage kids (hopefully this is more important) and cost BSA quite a bit of money, I'm sure they take the background checks more seriously than they do completeness of training records. With the exception of Youth Protection and Safety related trainings, lost records do not have the same potential to cause financial losses to councils.

 

We are expected to handle paperwork correctly and they should be as well. You know they would not accept the situation if we only submitted recharting paperwork or tour permits with the same ratio of success.

 

I supose one can argue that the OP has exceeded the amount of frustration allowed under the Scout Law, or that his suggestion to make it a public issue at a roundtable is not appropriate. I guess I would have to respond that if no one strongly expresses discontent, and there are no other negative repercussions that result from their inability to perform part of their duties why would they change how they do business? Aparently wasting time/money misfiling documents and sending out letters (again wasted money)adivising you are not properly trained yet appears to be working for them.

 

Ry

(This message has been edited by rythos)

[scoutldr]

The Council is not a governmental agency and is not covered by the Privacy Act. They have no legal obligation to safeguard your private information, since you willingly turn it over to them. If you expect privacy then keep your information to yourself. (Same is true for e-mail...the words "private" and "Yahoo" do not belong in the same sentence!)

 

I don't think you owe anyone an apology. The SE is captain of the ship and is responsible to the Executive Board for what happens on his watch...why didn't he/she take corrective action 8 years ago, or as soon as they recognized the problem?

 

I'm tired of listening to excuses from people who didn't do their homework and it's "not their fault". This country is going down the toilet because of it.

[Bob White]

The software causing the problem is not the local coucil's. The problem is in the BSA's national data system. The local councils are simply following the the procedures given them by the national office. They are more frustrated than you over having having to re-enter some of the information several times.

 

Dludens in a PM (that he said I could share with you) says that he is the one who has exposed this problem. That is also a greatly exaggerated response to this issue. This problem has been known for some time and has even been discussed on the forum more than once in the past. Dludens contributionis only his choice of how he handles (or mishandles) his frustration.

 

To lead a few posters in a chant of incompetence toward the office staff of a local council, whose only role is data entry and not data storage or processing, is mean spirited and misdirected.

 

Certainly as an adult with leadership training he should have better tools for handling this situation than slandering people.

 

The first time this situation arose I simply put my training history into a word document, and each time the local office or a commissioner called sayng they needed the info I attached it to an e-mail and sent it off. Gosh, I thing the last 4 requests have taken almost a full minute out of my life.

 

Perhaps if dludens and others stopped ranting and calling people names, and instead took a moment to evaluate the situation, perhaps they could find a reasonable solution as well.

 

You have to realize that when others are responsible for the solution, calling them names will not solve the problem. Neither will denying them the needed data to fix the problem. So focus on solving your end of the problem. That being, eliminating your frustration. Obviously dluden's approach of ignoring their request and calling people names had done nothing to reduce his frustration, as evidenced by his posts. So it would seem obvious that a more mature approach is needed.

 

 

[shortridge]

The council program director that dludens posted the reply from acknowledges that the abandonment of the national database may be overdue. That says a lot in my book. It seems to have taken vocal complaints to get change.

 

It is the council's responsibility to administer the records properly. If the database is a known problem, then it becomes the council's responsibility to fix or replace it.

 

Judging from the reply the OP received, it's the problems have been creating additional work for the council staff, who've had to review the outputs and make sure they're correct! Such a situation doesn't make a darn bit of sense.

[Bob White]

Of course it is up to the local counil to check the output, it is the local coucil that has the raw data that was input to the database, It only makes sense that they would do the checks to see if the date was catured or not.

 

It is not the councils responsibility to keep training records. Until recently that was a district responsibility. It was only as the Scoutnet system was established and the adult training tracking program was added that it became the councils job to enter the data.

 

I was a District Training chair at the time the new national software became available. I had kept all the training rcords for the district on an Excel spread sheet, Once the national program started we thought it would be a simple matter to import the data into the national data base, but it turned out that they were not compatable and everything still needed too be hand entered.

 

It was a frustration, but it was handled maturely without the need to call anyone incompetent, or threats of refusing to cooperate.

 

Create a personal training history and keep your own records updated. If someone needs them just send an e-mail and quit the temper tantrums.

 

 

 

 

[resqman]

If I go to a retail establishment and the clerk does something wrong, I complain to management. I usually allow a mistake once. But if the store continues to make the same mistake repeatedly, then I complain to store management. I am paying for them to provide a service. They need to know they are not meeting my needs and need to take steps to resolve the problems.

 

As a volunteer, the local office is the face of BSA National. If something is repeatedly wrong, they need to be held accountable. They in this case, is the local office. As a customer I don't know or care if the problem is a local issue or a national problem. It is wrong and it needs fixing. If enough customers complain, then the word goes up the chain. It is not my job as a customer to figure out the internal workings of the vendor/supplier. It is their job to resolve thier internal problems.

 

If BSA can't keep track of my training records, then I lose faith in their system. Why bother to file my records with them if they are just going to ask for them again and again and again... It is not a time thing, it is a responsibiltiy thing.

 

I pay dues for them to keep track of records. I am a paying customer. If they are not doing what I pay for, then they should be hassled until it becomes important for them to do their job.

[Eagle92]

Speaking from experience in my past life as a professional, SCOUTNET has so many bugs that 100% DEET wouldn't get rid of them. Heck Supply division told national not to use the company that created SCOUTNET, and actually uses another company for their software. That's why supply has they act together a little better.

 

One of my fellow DEs was a computer tech and when the SCOUTNET class came up at PDL-1 he stated that problems would occur since the company hired has a poor history, and most companies wind up abandoning the original system, and getting a new one from a competitor. It also hurt BSA that the guy in charge of implementing SCOUTNET had NO background in tech, but was a SE promoted upward.

 

I know that when it first came out, it took my council THREE MONTHS just to get mailing labels for the newspaper. Don't ask me why it took that long, but the computer doing it was online for 3 months solid. no joke.

 

In referencfe to the original post. I would be HELPFUL, FREINDLY, and CHEERFUL by sending in ALL your training dates so that they could then update your records. I would then ask not only for confirmation, but a copy of the council generated records so that you have a copy.

 

As mentioned this is not just your council, but everywhere. After being a DE, I moved to four different councils, and none of my records followed me, despite the fact that SCOUTNET is supposed to allow that to happen. I finally got everything cleared up once I came back to my old district, and pros that are still here backed up the fact that I did go through the training I said I did.

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[shortridge]

BW,

 

Spot-checks of data make sense, but what the PD in this case described is something else entirely - double-checking the outputs every time:

 

"We have gotten in the habit of reviewing those reports before we send out mailings like the one you just received. With the volume of names however, it is inevitable that we will miss some of the errors."

 

If you don't trust your system, then scrap it! I can't imagine that a private business would keep a system that consistently screwed up its inventory, fulfillment or payroll records. There would either be too many complaints from inside and out, or it would no longer be cost-efficient to keep putting on band-aid-and-chewing-gum fixes.

 

As you acknowledged, recordkeeping in most places is now a council responsibility. I can understand problems at the district level, given demands on volunteers' time and turnover in those positions. I can't understand why those problems would persist at the council level, where people have the money, time, resources and leverage to deal with them.

 

Again, flip it around and think about this situation from another perspective. If I, as a unit leader, kept screwing up my Scouts' advancement information, causing problems for both my unit and folks at Council who had to deal with the aftermath, I'd be rightly called incompetent. That's my responsibility, and I repeatedly failed at it even after having been given multiple chances. End of conversation.