TooMuch Authority?

[vcrew66]

Need some definitive guidance here (no "hear-say"):

 

Is it "BSA legal" for one person to simultaneously hold the offices of District Commissioner, District Camping Chair, Unit Commissioner, COR, and Committee Chair all for the SAME UNIT? Where can I find documentation from National to support/deny it?

 

We have a respected veteran gentleman in our area who is, and quite literally holds all the reigns re: removing leaders, revoking memberships, etc. and has been doing so at his leisure. I respect the man, but having carte-blanch authority is anti-BSA to my knowledge.

 

Am I the only one to whom this seems very inappropriate, and indeed against all BSA policies? From what I've read in manuals and guidelines, this cannot be allowed to happen. Should I take this issue any farther, as the DE and CE appear to wholeheartedly approve of it?

 

Just wondering...

[Eamonn]

"all for the SAME UNIT?"

 

Looking at the list posted:

District Commissioner. Not a unit position

District Camping Chair.Not a unit position

Unit Commissioner.Not a unit position.

 

Can a District Commissioner serve as a Unit Commissioner. I'll bet with the shortage of Commissioners many do and I have never seen why they can't.

Camping Chairs along with all the other Chairs (Training, Advancement, Membership and so on) are all listed as District Committee Members.

The District Commissioner is not arred from holding one of these positions.

Why anyone would want too? Is beyond me.

As for the Unit positions?

COR, and Committee Chair. Again I don't think it's a wise move, but if that's what the CO is happy with I think (I'm sure Bob White will put me right!) that a charter can go through that way.

Unit Leaders are not supposed to serve as Commissioners, but COR AND CC are not unit leader positions.

Ea.

 

[Eagle92]

V,

Dis.Com., Dis. camp. Chair, and unit commissioner are district level positions and can't really do anything within a unit. Also a DC cannot be REGISTERED as a UC as the UCs work for him. But if his UC drops out, has problems, etc, then the DC has to step in.

 

While I know of leaders wearing 2 hats, i.e. me being both a UC and Dist. Training. chair at one time, it is discouraged, but allowed in some cases. Trust me it's not fun wearing two vitally important hats at the same time.

 

Now within a unit, if he is the COR and CC, then yes he does have the power to hire and fire leaders, ask scouts to leave, etc. Only one person can overide him, the IH. That is BSA policy as the IH, COR, or CC all represent the CO which owns the unit. Also it is allowed for one person to hold two or more of those postions, per BSA policy as they essentially do the same thing: represent the CO to the unit. Usually it's someone being the COR and CC, but I know of one pastor who was die hard Scouter who did all three postions, AND went camping with the troop, depending upon how far the troop went and how early he would have to leave to make it to services.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[ScoutNut]

"Where can I find documentation from National to support/deny it?"

 

It is OK for a person to be dual registered in the same unit as both the COR and the CC. - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-501F.pdf

 

 

UC of the same unit in which he is already both COR & CC. This is not recommended, but, since the COR & CC are not considered the unit leader, it is possible. -

 

http://www.scouting.org/commissioners.aspx'>http://www.scouting.org/commissioners.aspx'>http://www.scouting.org/commissioners.aspx

 

 

A District Commissioner also being the registered COR & CC of a unit. This is not recommended, but, since the COR & CC are not considered the unit leader, it is possible. -

 

http://www.scouting.org/commissioners.aspx

 

 

A District Commissioner who is also a UC is not recommended, but it is possible in some instances. BSA states that "Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position". BSA also states that it is one of the responsibilities of the Assistant District Commissioner to "service units with no assigned unit commissioner." If the Dist Commissioner is registered ONLY as a DC, and NOT as BOTH a DC and UC, then the DC is simply the units "acting" UC and is not in violation of BSA policy. While it is the responsibility of the ADC, not the DC, to be acting UC for units with no assigned UC, if the District has no ADC, or way to many units with no assigned UC, then the DC would have to take on some UC positions too. -

 

http://www.scouting.org/commissioners.aspx

 

http://www.scouting.org/Commissioners/Manuals/33621.aspx

 

http://www.scouting.org/Commissioners/Manuals/34128.aspx

 

 

District Camping Chair is a member of the District Committee and has nothing to do with either Unit Service or Commissioner Service. BSA has nothing to say (that I have ever seen) about District Camping Chairs holding, or not holding, other positions in the Council, District, or unit.

 

 

Wearing to many hats, is not recommended by the BSA, can definitely be detrimental to the many positions the volunteer is trying to fill, and also to their health. However, in your examples, it is NOT necessarily against BSA policy, and according to BSA job descriptions this man does NOT hold "all the reigns". He can, as COR and UC, appoint and remove ONLY his units adult volunteers and youth from ONLY his units charter. He has nothing to do with membership in any other part of the District or Council. As DC, he also has the ability to both recruit and remove members of the District Commissioner staff (this includes Asst Dist Commissioners, Unit Commissioners and Roundtable Commissioners).

 

Unless there are other problems you have not shared, and with the SE and DE both behind this man, there is really nothing you can do.(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[Bob White]

If he is a CR and CC let the Institutional Head worry about him. If he is a District Commissioner let the Council Commissioner worry about him. If he is a district committee member then let the District Chairman worry about him.

 

Join a unit that he is not in and then even with all his positions he would have no authority over you at all and you can focus on what your responsibilities are and forget about him.

[WAKWIB]

Regardless of how OK according to policy it may be, the situation does beg the question of how truly effective of a leader this gentleman may be. Can a guy really give due diligence to 5 different volunteer positions. Each one, if done properly, take up a lot of time. Assuming this fellow has an abundance of time and super-human organizational/management skills, would there still be a possibility of a conflict of interest somewhere along the line? Maybe he could step back from one or two of those postions and give other good leaders an opportunity to serve.

[Bob White]

Isn't whether or not he is effective or capable of doing these jobs a decision for the folks who supervise those positions to make and no one else?

 

I am not saying that it's a good idea to have so many hats on one hat rack, but why worry about him if he is not yours to supervise? Every job he has was given to him by another operson who supervises that position, if they don't have a problem with him then why would another volunteer worry about it. No one is forced have to deal with him. You do not have to be in the unit he is in, you do not have to be on any of his committees.

 

It seems a lot of the conflicts at the unit and Council/district levels comes from folks worrying more about other peoples job performance rather than just their own. I am not suggesting that vcrew66 isn't doing his or her job, only that they worry too much about this other fellow when that is not vcrew66's job responsibility.

 

 

[evmori]

I am not saying that it's a good idea to have so many hats on one hat rack, but why worry about him if he is not yours to supervise?

 

Why worry? Maybe because this guys is too spread out to be effective & is doing more harm than good????

[FScouter]

If the complaint is that the COR/CC is revoking memberships and removing leaders and removing members, the folks to talk to are those of the chartered organization. The council exec and district exec might offer assistance or advice to the CO, but its up to the CO to deal with its COR/CC. If your unit commissioner is not being helpful, its fair to ask for a new one.

 

That the individual also serves in district positions is not relevant, except that a unit commissioner should never be registered in a unit position for the unit he serves as commissioner. None of those district positions, including unit commissioner, have any authority over a unit.

[vcrew66]

A quick reply to some comments:

 

According to www.scouting.org/commissioners.aspx, a Scouter cannot hold multiple commissioner roles at once:

 

"Commissioners must not be registered simultaneously as unit leaders. Some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a son in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, but their principle Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities. Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position."

 

I appreciate the replies re: the other positions.

[click23]

Yes that is in the books, but it is not enforced, as it is allowed to register as a commissioner and other positions in BSAs registration software.

 

 

"removing leaders, revoking memberships, etc. and has been doing so at his leisure" Is he doing this just in the unit that he is COR or other units in the district?

(This message has been edited by click23)

[Eamonn]

I kinda think that everyone will agree that anyone will agree that someone wearing too many hats, is never a good thing.

At times we do seem to get sucked in,doing more and more.

Some people have things that they really like doing and have a hard time giving up, even when they know deep down that they are doing too much.

Some of us just have a hard time saying No!

It can also be very difficult when it comes to "Knocking some of these hats off" people who are doing too much.

We are scared that someone will get upset and we might hurt their feelings and we worry that if they get upset there will be repercussions.

 

I at times worry that when someone asks for "some definitive guidance". What they are in fact really saying is that they want some ammo. Information that might be used to oust or cause problems for someone.

Having and knowing the "Book Answer" isn't a bad thing. But if there is a problem it is far better to find the right time and place to talk it over with the person that you are having a problem with, rather than trying to beat the heck out of them with the book of rules and regulations. While you might be right? What you are trying to do can be a long way from being right.

Eamonn.

 

[ScoutNut]

Yep, "Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position."

 

Just like - "No one may register in more than one position in the same unit, except the chartered organization representative (who can multiple only as the committee chairman (CC) or a committee

member (MC)) and the ScoutParent unit coordinator (who may multiple as chartered organization representative (CR), assistant den leader (DA), assistant Webelos den leader (WA), assistant Scoutmaster (SA), assistant Varsity Scout Coach (VA), mate (MT), and leader of the 11-year-old Scouts)."

 

The key here is REGISTER.

 

As I said earlier, the volunteer you have such ire toward is most likely only REGISTERED in ONE Commissioner position.

 

However, like many folks in Packs, Troops, and Crews, he is doing 2 jobs.

 

Again, as I said earlier, the most likely reason is that there are NOT ENOUGH Unit Commissioners to go around.

 

Vcrew66, how many jobs do YOU do that you are not REGISTERED for? Shall we advocate that you be tossed out on your bum because you do to much?

 

It seems to me that there must be a personal issue here that you are not sharing with us. Could this have anything to do with the young man you had ousted from your crew & wanted ousted from his Troop, but the Troop leadership would not go along with it?

 

 

 

[vcrew66]

My reason for beginning this topic is 100% "honest" and "trustworthy"...as I noted, I really respect the man for taking on so much responsibility to help our unit and district. I am not seeking "ammo", but only some clarification on policies.

 

What I AM very tired of is hearing "...BSA says this..." or "...the official policy is this..." and becoming confused on who really should be doing what! My belief has always been that trying to do too much causes a leader to not do anything to their best ability.

 

A side note: since when did "checks and balances" become ammunition? Knowing responsibilities is a major part of the battle of running units properly.

[Eagle92]

While the DE and professional staff will not get involved, you can ask for some advice and reference. Just don't call them up at 1AM in the morning as some one did to me way back when. DE are required to have a district operations manual that cover a ton of stuff. Sorry but i can't help you out there as I gave all the individual component to my volunteers when I left to join supply.

 

Another resource would be a national scout shop. Local council distributorships don't always keep everything that a national shop requires. And a lot of of the literature is available.