YP and G2SS Questions

[mk9750]

I don't have access to a copy of the guidelines right now, but need to get some advice about two questions very quickly.

 

We are under the impression that adults 18 - 21 may not drive Scouts to activities and events. Is this true?

 

If an 18 year old is going to summer camp as an extra adult, but is not registered as an adult, is he still bound by the two deep leadership rules?

 

My oldest son, who just turned 18, is going to summer camp the day after everyone else. One of the Scouts' mothers asked me if my son could drive her son to summer camp, as they will be out of town for a wedding and won't be back until 5 - 6 hours after the Troop leaves.

 

As of now, my son and this boy will be the only two in the car. The mom is willing to sign a special permission slip to do this, and to acknowledge that it will be only her son and mine in the car.

 

I am still uncomfortable with this. Any suggestions?

 

Mark

[Eagledad]

Hi Mark

 

It's been a little while, but my understanding is that 16 is the only BSA restriction which you can find on the tour permit. Any other restriction is a unit restriction. Our Troop has a 21 rule which prevented my 20 year old son from driving to Philmont this year. I think your son is legal at 16 and above to take anyone as far as the BSA is concerned. Check you personal insurance.

 

Barry

[Bob White]

Mark,

Please check your private message mailbox.

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Laurie]

This is from the Guide to Safe Scouting, the chapter on transportation:

 

1. Seat belts are required for all occupants.

 

2. All drivers must have a valid driver's license that has not been suspended or revoked for any reason. If the vehicle to be used is designed to carry more than 15 persons, including the driver (more than 10 persons, including the driver, in California), the driver must have a commercial driver's license (CDL).

 

3. An adult leader (at least 21 years of age) must be in charge and accompany the group.

 

4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions:

Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted)

No record of accidents or moving violations

Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders

 

5. Passenger cars or station wagons may be used for transporting passengers, but passengers should not ride on the rear deck of station wagons.

 

6. Trucks may not be used for transporting passengers except in the cab.

 

7. All driving, except short trips, should be done in daylight.

 

8. All vehicles must be covered by automobile liability insurance with limits that meet or exceed requirements of the state in which the vehicle is licensed. It is recommended that coverage limits are at least $50,000/$100,000/$50,000. Any vehicle designed to carry 10 or more passengers is required to have limits of $100,000/$500,000/$100,000.

 

9. Do not exceed the speed limit.

 

10. Do not travel in convoy (see "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings," No. 2).

 

11. Driving time is limited to a maximum of 10 hours and must be interrupted by frequent rest, food, and recreation stops. If there is only one driver, the driving time should be reduced and stops should be made more frequently.

 

12. Don't drive drowsy. Stop for rest and stretch breaks as needed. Fatigue is a major cause of highway accident fatalities.

 

I won't try to interpret; just passing on the info so you can take it from here.

 

[mk9750]

Thanks for the quick responses! They were very helpful.

 

Based on the answers, were will go ahead and let him drive. He has the Adult Leader Application filled out, but he wouldn't be able to turn it in until after summer camp anyway, so he technically isn't a registered adult. I am curious about his status, though. He reregistered during rechartering in January as a youth, then turned 18. What does that make him now?

 

The mom involved was very quick to agree to signing a permission slip, which includes a statement that she accepts that her son will be the only Scout in the car. Her statement was that my son has carted her son all around town anyway for ball games and band practices.

 

Thanks all for your help!

 

Mark

[NJCubScouter]

mk asks:

 

He reregistered during rechartering in January as a youth, then turned 18. What does that make him now?

 

It makes him an adult, regardless of his registration status. I do not think he can be alone in a car with a Scout, and I don't think the permission slip helps. If something were to happen, I don't think it would be worth the paper it's printed on.

 

This is one of those situations where the rules collide with common sense. You know full well nothing is going to happen, these boys ride together outside Scouting and have spent much time alone within Scouting. Also consider that, assuming the younger boy is of Venturing age, if these 2 were in a Venture crew, all would be well because the older boy would still be considered a youth until his 21st birthday. What sense does that make?

 

But that does not change what the rules are. I do not think they can ride alone together to a Scouting function.

[Fat Old Guy]

What sense does it make that a 16 year old can drive to a Regional event but not to a District event? Does a Regional event imbue the youth with special powers.

 

What sense does it make that a 16 year old Venturer can drive to a Venturing event but that same Scout cannot drive to the District Camporee?

 

As I said elsewhere, many BSA policies suck.

 

 

[silver-shark]

I don't believe the policy is bad when interpreted correctly Fat Old Guy.

 

When we look at Rule 4 above, what we see is that a 16 yaer old, with certain restrictions of course, may drive to a Boy Scout or Venturing Activity as long as there is an adult leader that is at least 21 years of age on the trip.

 

In addition, it states that they can drive to "area, regional, or national" events. I don't see anywhere where it states that these 16 year olds cannot drive to a district event.

 

The intent of this policy is to avoid having Boy Scouts or Venturers driving themselves to events with no adult supervision, even though they may be able to participate without that adult participation at all with an approved plan.

 

This seems very reasonable to me.

[Fat Old Guy]

Silver Shark said, "In addition, it states that they can drive to "area, regional, or national" events. I don't see anywhere where it states that these 16 year olds cannot drive to a district event."

 

Let's look at this in steps

 

4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age.

 

This means the driver must be 18 under any circumstances EXCEPT

 

Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity

 

Area, regional and national events are specified exceptions to the rule. Since district events are not specified they are not exceptions to the rule so a youth member may not drive to such events.

 

What it does accomplish is that it requires that if the SM and one ASM are the only adults who can go to an event, that a 17 year old Scout cannot drive the third car which means that some Scouts may not go. The same 17 year old could drive to a Venturing event with six other Venturers in his car.

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Fog has conveniently stopped his quote on the left side of a comma. The entire sentence reads.

4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions:

 

It then goes on to explain the conditions. So Fog is incorrect in his explanation. Using his own scenario

if the SM and one ASM are the only adults who can go to an event, a 17 year old Scout can drive a third car providing

>He has six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted)

>No record of accidents or moving violations

>Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders

 

Bob White

 

[silver-shark]

Exactly my point...

 

Thanks for the clarification Bob.

 

Why wouldn't a District event be concidered to be an area or regional event Fat Old Guy?

 

You're not making sense... It seems that you're just looking for something to complain about that doesn't exist.(This message has been edited by silver-shark)(This message has been edited by silver-shark)

[Eamonn]

WAY TO GO LAURIE.

 

[acco40]

How many of us do not follow the "All driving, except short trips, should be done in daylight." rule? Do scouts in Alaska not have outings in the winter months? What constitutes a "short trip?" Under 50 miles? Under 500 miles? Living in Michigan and leaving for most outings on Friday evening we practically drive in the dark from October until April.

 

I understand the intention of the rule, driving in darkness is more hazardous than driving in daylight. However, IMO, a well rested driver with night driving experience does not jeopardize safety. Of course, my opinion is not the one that matters.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Why wouldn't a District event be concidered to be an area or regional event Fat Old Guy? "

 

Becuase it is a District Event. Regions and Areas are made up of Councils. So a 17 year old cannot drive to a District Event. So until Bobby can explain how a troop campout or District Camporee qualifies as an Area/Regional event, I'll stand by my reading.

[silver-shark]

"When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership..."

 

You will note that the words "area", "regional", and "national", are not capitalized in this statement. They do not pertain to a specific type of event but rather their dictionary definition. Nothing more.

 

I have heard of nothing specifically called an Area Activity, or a Regional Activity, although I have heard of National Activities such as Jamborees.

 

The wording doesn't specifically state District, Council, or National Activities, but these all take place within areas, regions, and the nation don't they?(This message has been edited by silver-shark)