For Commisioneer Staff ONLY

[LongHaul]

I want to respond to click23 first. Please click23 do not take this as a personal assault it is not you it is the way you were trained IMO. You just presented a capsule of what I am trying to discuss. This may sound like semantics to many but if you believe in Freud you know that we use the words and phrases our subconscious sometimes chooses and they can be windows to a truth.

Click23 opens with; >> I am a UC, for little over a year now, but I have never been a direct contact leader.<<

>> What constitutes a Quality program? >>for a troop, an organized meeting ran by the boys.<< Later click23 writes >> I also look at the strength of the committee, if a PLC is being used,<< My question now is did a youth script and plan the meeting or did an adult? Is there a written plan? Does this plan cover a systematic approach to the full Scouting year? What is the yearly goal or objective for this unit? The UCs Troop Worksheet does not cover any of these things.  Having a youth doing the talking instead of an adult should not be the objective.

 >> teaching scout skills to younger scouts by older scouts,<< Who taught the older scouts? Where is the quality control? Are these things taught the same way to each younger scout or is it left to the knowledge of a specific instructor to govern the quality, quantity, and accuracy of the instruction? Again the UCs Troop Worksheet does not cover any of these things.

 >> How much time does it take to tell if a program is Quality or not. Depends on the unit, so you could walk in the door and tell if they are or they are not, or it could take a few months of evaluation to see.<< This may only have been a slip in attention but incase is wasnt, I hope we realize that we may be able to spot a program that is NOT quality in nature when we walk in the door but deciding whether a given program is a quality program or not takes more than a few meeting. I know more troops that claim to be boy-led than troops that are boy-led. First impressions can be wrong, in both regards.

 >> Where the people that trained you direct contact leaders for any length of time?<< In response click23 goes on to list training completed. Commissioner Basics, NLE, Scoutmaster specific, Cub Leader specific, Troop Committee Challenge, Venture leader specific, Trainer Development Conference, Woodbadge. Those providing this training are said to have direct contact experience though the quality of that experience and the quality of the program it generated or enabled is unknown. Ive attended training delivered by trainers whose home units were by no stretch of the imagination quality programs. They were delivering training because; they accepted the task, they sought the position, they had attended numerous trainings themselves, or they were just in the group that decided these things. The system produces and seeks out people like click23 to fill the needed Commissioner positions. Just like developing a boy led troop developing a Commissioner service takes time and experience. Instead if taking the time to recruit people with experience and having them serve others in their field of experience, BSA attempts to fill the gaps with text book classes. Again no offense meant here click23 but the system has put you in the position where I see you as POSSIBLY being like a highly skilled surgeon that aced every class, but never held a scalpel to a live patient, being given the task of mentoring surgeons in the field. You can tell if they did it wrong and know what the right way looks like but you cant show them much hands on. You cant, as Beavah is so often heard to say, tell them what worked for you. If I come to click23 with a problem in my troop what can I expect besides the same advice I heard when I took NLE, SM Specifics, Troop Committee Challenge, and Woodbadge?

This is too long already but in closing Id say John-in KC, yes it does make sense. Ill bet you got that from observation and execution and not from a training class or out of a book.

 LH

[Eamonn]

For a while I worked as a school teacher, teaching English History.

Of course I wasn't around when Henry the Eighth was using the Tower as a behead and breakfast joint or when Queen Elizabeth was ducking and diving with Sir Francis Drake.

I loved English History and thought I liked kids.

Sadly after a couple of years I was ready to pull my hair out.

Not because I lacked the subject knowledge.

I just wasn't very good at managing a classroom full of kids.

I left teaching and took up cooking. Along the way became a certified Executive Chef, went back to school got another degree in Food Service and then later one in dietetics.

I know a lot about food and cooking.

Right now I'm teaching convicted criminals in State Correctional facilities how to cook.

While we do have a few guys who were involved in food service "On the street", most are new and I spent most of my time teaching the basics.

My past involvement and know how about food does come in handy. (And of course without it I'd never have got the job!!) However my biggest challenges are not to do with food.

My big challenges have all to do with people management.

I at times do wish I could speak Spanish, so that I could communicate with the Spanish speaking inmates.

I do wish I had a better understanding of the mindset of the inmates.

Please don't tell the Department of Corrections, but at the level I'm teaching, just about anyone with half a brain who can read could do what I'm doing.

We (The DOC) does have advanced classes for inmates that seem like they are really interested and might want to pursue a career in food service.

Of course someone who has experience or experiences in any given area should be able to do a better job that someone who has only gained their know how from a book.

If a unit Scouter wants to know more, we (The BSA) offers training's and if someone wants to specialize in some area and share that specialty with the youth members there are classes out there.

A commissioner should be aware of what is available and where it is available.

A good commissioner will be able to communicate this to the people he or she is dealing with.

I don't like the cold, I have never been to Antarctica but I'm sure if asked I could find out about Boy Scouts

of America participation in the National Science Foundation

and BSA scientific project to Antarctica, isn't this what a commissioner does?

As to the question about "What is a quality program?"

Let's be honest!!

Unless things are really very ugly? Do we really think a Unit Commissioner is going to change very much? Especially if the adults in the unit don't want to change?

Commissioners can offer information, advise, kind words, maybe help calm troubled waters and offer a pat on the back.

Some of the very worst commissioners are those who want to bore everyone to death telling war stories about "The good old days" And "How we used to do it, in my day!!"

Given the choice I'd sooner see the newbie commissioner, who is willing to learn over the know it all Scouter who has been doing it all wrong for the past number of years.

Eamonn.

[click23]

Thats it, I'm turning in my resignation to the DCommish.

 

;-)

 

Seriously LH, this doesn't bother me at all. When I try to debate my wife she gets mad and then upset and then I have to buy her something, so I welcome it here.

 

I don't see being a UC about knowing all the answers to every problem, but being able to know where to turn when one comes up that you don't know what to do. In my case if I don't know what to do I look in the books to get an idea where to start, then I will look on this forum and the ask Andy articles, Eamonns commissioners advice is always great, at netcommish.com. I will also turn to the DE and other scouters in the district. I have even went to the DCommish of a neighboring district with a strong commissioner corps, he was an instructor at my commissioners basic. But the way that you are thinking LH, that no matter how much training a SM has had, if he was never a SPL, he could not properly coach as SPL to do his job since he does not have any OTJ experience.

 

If you were appointed DCommish in my district what would you do with me?

 

Eamonn, I am lucky to have some great leaders in my units. They have always been open to me, but all I can do is suggest ideas. They are pretty receptive, but it sometimes it is hard to break old habits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

click23, I'm glad I have not offended you. As far as a SM coaching an SPL that SM is there all the time to watch the effects and affects of his coaching. Just because I never played professional sports does not mean I can't tell if the plays I'm sending in are working. My problem is that when I finally admit that I need help I'm sent to a person that has less experience at coaching an SPL than I do. Using your coaching analogy a UC watching last weeks game films comes up with plays to use this week but isn't at the game. He then watches the next set of game films and repeats the process. It's real hard when your not standing on the side line when the game is being played. You can't come up and say "When we played these guys we..."

No cop out here but I would never be your DC or anyones DC. I don't want the job of working within parameters I object to in the first place. I'm not advocating disbanding the Commissioner service I just wince when every time there is a problem posted someone says call the UC call the DC as if these people have some answer that isn't in the training the original person has also taken.  I'm sure that there are times when they actually do have the answer.  There are many things a "never actually tried to do it" Commissioner can be of help with, budgets, convincing the adult leadership that building a solid troop committee is essential to a solid self perpetuating program. Helping the SM or CC or COR or whomever convince the adults to take training. But solving problems you've never had? It's like talking to a Priest about problems in the bedroom. HMMMM maybe that wasn't a good example.

 LH

[Eamonn]

LongHaul

Have to own up to not knowing much about sex therapists be they ordained or not.

The day to day running of most units is as a rule not rocket science and about as far away from being a Soap Opera as anything I know.

Of course sometimes after visiting this forum I do have to wonder.

Units at any given time (Looking at a District) Tend to fall into:

The Very Good

The Good.

The Not So Good.

The Trying To Get There.

And The Downright Ugly.

While every unit (In a perfect world?) Should have an expectation of receiving Commissioner Service and that expectation should be met.

The Very Good and Good Units can get by with very minimal service.

In a lot of cases The Downright Ugly Units, unless there is some sort of miraculous event! Are past saving and even the "District Types" are aware of this and are willing to let them die. At times even hoping that the end comes sooner rather than later!

This of course leaves the Not So Good along with the Units that are Trying To Get There.

Some Not So Good Units will have been Not So Good for a very long time. Some might be open to change, some are happy to remain where they are, doing what they do and getting what they get.

(The Troop OJ was in was a Not So Good Troop. At times they had a lot of Scouts, they had a fair outdoor program. But somehow never seemed to allow the Scouts make any decisions and tried to be an Eagle Scout factory -Going as far as to have "Where Eagles Fly" on the back of their Troop ball-caps)

Some of these units are served by adults who have attended every training under the sun,. They just think that their way of doing things is better.

Of course things do change; leaders come and go and opportunities that might change the way they do things can and do crop up. At times a hard working Commissioner can prevent things from getting worse and hopefully can help improve things?

Units that are trying to get there. Do offer the Unit Commissioner a more rewarding task. It's in a Unit like this where he or she will have the most influence.

A lot of the problems that all units face have nothing to do with practical Scouting, the problems are about adults who can't get on or are fighting and squabbling.

When this happens having an outsider who doesn't have a vested interest in the unit (Sure he has one in the program) can be a big help. This person doesn't need a vast amount of Scouting know how to see what or who the problem is and offer suggestions about what can be done to fix the problem or failing that bring in someone who can.

The District I'm in has about 40 units.

Most of the time the units amble along doing what they do, with little or no problems.

The visit from the UC is more or less a "Hi, how is it going?" type meeting. If there is something going on, he or she can pass that information along.

Very few units or Commissioners get involved with uniform inspections.

There is always the big push to get the charters in on time. Commissioners do play a big par in making sure that happens.

Back when I was District Commish. One big problem we had was that people would by-pass the Unit Commissioner and most times would call me or the DE (Who would then call me!!)

We did have a few Unit Commissioners who had served as the Unit Commissioner to the same unit for a very long time, so long in fact that they may have become a little too close to the unit and the people they liked in the unit.

Maybe we need to think about asking the question "What Do You Expect From Your Unit Commissioner?" before we look at the qualifications of one?

Sadly if I were to spin off? I kinda think we would get a lot of stories about how Unit Commissioners? Who are they?

Old Codgers who pop up every now and then, coffee cup in hand and talk about the good old days and sadly the Commissioners who never really understood what being a friend to the unit was all about and are on some sort of power trip. -So I'm not going there!!

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC]

LH,

 

80% or so is a combination of observation and discussion with others.

 

10% is from the program literature.

 

10% is from a great book, perhaps out-of-print, by the late LTG Arthur Collins, called Commonsense Training. It had just been published in the late 70s when I was new in the Army, and when we were truly at our post Viet Nam nadir. Some of the things I should have learned from mentorship on the ground, sadly did come from that particular tome.

[John-in-KC]

acco,

 

There's a difference between doing the job and doing it well, and "meeting Quality Metrics."

 

- Quality Unit (OK, centennial quality award).

- Quality District (I've heard volunteers being browbeaten about that).

- Quality Lodge (OA)

- Quality Council

 

Do not tell me BSA doesn't have "buzzword bingo" in play on the topic of Quality. Someone bought into ISO2000/Malcolm Baldridge, rather than buying into Tom Peters.

 

In one of my secondary Scouting lives, I'm an AA and the recharter guy for our Crew. In April or so, since I'm an RT staff, I got to tell our DC we'd made the decision to close the Crew at the end of the program year. It was built around two HS classes in particular, one of them was graduating and the other was going to be seniors. THREE DAYS LATER our Advisor got a frantic call from two ADCs: One whose folio was Venturing, and one who had the area folio. The message received was "You cannot close down, we cannot make Quality District if you close down."

 

Forgive me, but how is it unit serving Scouters responsibility for echelons above us to make THEIR quality targets? Please inform me, I really want to understand this one.

[Lisabob]

Nah, I completely agree with you John, and I say that as a current district membership chair. Of course I made my views fairly clear when I agreed to take on my present role, that I refused to play bean counter (only) this time around, and that what I wanted to do was develop a comprehensive strategy to help increase membership via solid programming, rather than last-minute creativity with numbers. And if "they" don't like that approach? Well then, "they" are more than welcome to replace me. However, I am beginning to hear more and more about meeting those goals (which, BTW, I had no hand in setting) and I know things are getting a little warmer under the feet of my DE. I'll do whatever I can within reason to help us make our goals but no way should we be keeping units on the books just because it helps us meet some criteria, if in doing so we aren't actually serving youth. I guess it is easy to lose sight of the bigger picture sometimes though.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Recovering from ROFLMAO:

 

I think I figured it out, Lisa!!!

 

QUALITY ________________ (insert organization in the blank) is the Man Scout's MERIT BADGE!!!!