For Commisioneer Staff ONLY

[LongHaul]

I don't know why the original thread was in Council Relations but I'll leave it here. I my self have recently accepted a position on the Commissioneer Staff. This question is for Commisoneer Staff that have never been direct contact leaders. Or were SM or ASM for a very short period.

 

What constitutes a Quality program?

 

How do you identify a Quality Program? How much time does it take to tell if a program is Quality or not.

 

Where the people that trained you direct contact leaders for any length of time?

 

If you are not a Commisioneer please start a new thread to express your views.

 

LH

(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[eolesen]

I'm an ADC, so I'll simply dodge the question...

 

There's Quality and there's quality. I focus on the latter... I do believe you can tell a good program at the first visit. Return visits just reinforce that impression.

 

One of my units has only five or six boys attending meetings on a regular basis, but they're a quality program in that they're functioning under the patrol method/boy led. You don't see their SM or ASM up there preaching.

 

Another one has twenty or so boys regularly attending. Adults make 10-15 minutes of announcements at each meeting. I've seen 25-30 minutes of announcements, which is a third of the alloted meeting time. Sure, they're a Quality unit. But at times I question the quality of their program.

 

All of the ADC's and UC's in our district are what I'd consider long time unit leaders (5-8 years). Most are still SM's or ASM's. So, I don't think that training or their background is the issue.

 

Looking at the council level, it's been a while since some commissioners have been directly involved with a unit. Given the shortage of commissioners nationwide, I'm not going to complain too much if someone wants to serve in the position, but when recruiting, I do make an effort to find UC's who are still active at the unit level, and plan to remain active.(This message has been edited by eolesen)(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[LongHaul]

The first thing I was told when I became an adult and joined the District team was NEVER RECRUIT DIRECT CONTACT SCOUTERS FOR DISTRICT POSITIONS. The fact that you say most of your Commissioner staff are taking time away from their primary obligation makes me wonder about the vision of your Professional staff in allowing this.

eolesen, why couldn't you see yourself working with a unit? The things you relate in the preceding sentence would indicate that you felt your time was limited. Working with a unit at you own commitment level is far less time intensive than being a UC so I must have missed something. Maybe the reason is that you are trying to give some youth the opportunity that you didn't get. My problem with that is you know what you want to create but have no experience in creating it yourself. I'm not saying that you can not be of value, quite the contrary an outside observer sees avenues and stumbling points those close to the action miss. What I am questioning is the wisdom of having people that have never actually done so meting trying to help others do it instead of having veteran direct contact leaders helping other direct contact leaders once the veteran has turned the reins over.

 As for the training & background of your Commissioner staff being an issue I ask this. Why don't they step down from their unit positions and do Commissioner work full time? Have they groomed someone to take over? Do they have a solid adult base that could effectively take over? Are their units run according to what they teach? If these are truly boy run units the SM can be replaced and the unit not miss a step. I witnessed this first hand at an early age when I stepped in for a SM that died suddenly in our District

.  LH

[Eamonn]

While at this time I'm not a Commissioner.

I have spent a lot of time as one and spent a number of years as District Commissioner.

"What constitutes a Quality program? "

Wow!!

I kinda guess a Quality program is like beauty -In the eye of the beholder!!

Each of us has our own little quirks, pet peeves, likes and dislikes.

Ask the 11 year old Scout and he might tell you how great the program is. But dig a little deeper and find out that the Troop Sod-surfing competition is his favorite activity.

Ask Dad and he'll say that the SM really knows what's what -He doesn't go for all that silly uniform stuff.

One SM will push the Merit Badge Count, while another might not give a fig about advancement.

However all is not lost.

The Unit Commissioner Worksheet is a good tool and a great place to start.

A couple of suggestions about using it:

Never ever, not even once bring it to the Troop meeting!! Leave it in your car and fill it the spaces after the meeting when you are alone, but while everything is still fresh in your mind.

You might want to make the people in the unit you serve aware of the Troop Self-Assessment form, if invited you might want to sit in with them as they complete it.

Some things might stick out like a sore thumb!!

Even if you don't have first hand knowledge or know how. Remember that you are the resourse guy.

When you go to the monthly meeting of Commissioners you can ask that someone from the District Committee look in on the unit and offer to help.

A unit with no budget, might want to talk to someone from the finance committee? Not Camping? A visit from the Camping and Activities Chair?

The big, very big thing is that as a Commish -You are first and foremost a friend of the unit.

If you go in and try to be overly judgmental, they will tell you not to bother coming back!! And yes they have every right to do so.

Seeing what is going on and slowly working toward fixing problems; using the power of suggestion and offering to help in a kind and cuddly way will work far better then telling them that they are doing things wrong and that their program stinks.

Try and get to know the other adults in the unit, not just the youth leaders. Remember if or when things don't go as they should you will be working with these people. Things go better if you know them and they know you. Also Committee meetings tell a lot about what is really happening in the unit. Sometimes visiting a meeting doesn't really tell all that is going on.

Some of the Commissioner material on the new DVD's is really good stuff.

As District Commissioner, I included some very short trainings as part of out monthly Commissioners meetings.

I asked all of the Commissioners to remember that they are a guest and they are there to help- Not judge.

Good Luck

Go out there and make friends.

Eamonn.

(If you have the time and the cash go to Philmont for the Commissioner Service Conference. I had a great time.)

 

[eolesen]

Longhaul, if we never recruited unit scouters for district positions, we'd never fill up the district positions.

 

I'm an ADC, but my primary registration and the largest occupier of my "one hour a week" is as an ASM. I may take on an DL position as well with our pack, since they meet on different nights...

 

Three of the other ADC's in our district are also currently either SM's or ASM's. Our DC's primary registration is CC for a pack.

 

In a more perfect world, we'd all only wear one patch in Scouting. But I wouldn't trade the experience of wearing two. It's made me a better scoutmaster, and a better friend of the troops and packs I serve.

 

You'll probably guess that the commissioner service suffers at the expense of the units we also serve. I'd say in some ways, yes. But the flipside is having no commissioner staff at all, and that's pretty much the situation we were in a few years ago.

 

Nationwide, only about 25% of the commissioner positions are actually filled. In our district, we had UC's with 4 and 5 units. Today, we're pretty close to a goal of no more than 2 units per UC. That's where my units are at, if you include the 2 that I oversee while I seek out a UC to take them on...(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[LongHaul]

Now I didn't say unit scouters I said direct contact scouters. Direct Contact scouters in Boy Scouts would be SM and ASM. If a troop has it's adults listed as ASM instead of MC I'd look at that first. I've seen troops with most of the male adults listed as ASM, it's like having all your boys listed as APLs or ASPLs. Give the MCs something to do beside crowd troop outings, how many adults does it take to supervise a boy led troop overnight?

 LH

[Eamonn]

OK, I just went back and looked at the thread that this was "Spun from" - I'll admit I wasn't following it!!

 

As I have posted in the past.

I don't hold out much hope for the future of Commissioner Service as we know it.

I think if all of our Commissioners were to wear only one hat? Things would be a lot worse. (Yes I have read what the book has to say!!)

I would like to think that we as an organization have room for anyone who meets the BSA requirements.

I'm not sure why people do what they do.

We who do choose to serve in some way, choose what fits best for us.

I get a little annoyed that so many "Program Scouter's" tend to look down on non-program types.

I have a good many friends who do a wonderful job of supporting Scouting and never see a Scout.

Some are Doctors who just can't take the time or make the commitment. Sure some of them sit on different Boards and are willing to share their treasure in order that Councils can offer youth members bigger and better programs.

When I was asked to be District Chair. It had nothing to do with what I knew about the practical side of Scouting, it had a lot more to do with my being a local business person who knew other local businesses and business people.

Like it or not Scouting does need and can't run without income.

While I'm on my high horse.

I have more beads, badges, knots and dingle dangles that any Polish Admiral could ever have.

I'm proud of them.

Some of them I paid for! Yes I have a James E. West.

Some I received for being trained. I never took the training's in order to get the knot. But when the requirements were met? It was my knot.

I never asked for a Silver Beaver, I still don't know why I received Vigil Honor?

Yes my ego likes the idea that I'm the only person in our Council who has the International Scouter's Award (No I have not as yet placed that knot on a uniform.

I sitting here at my computer looking at a good many plaques, certificates and Scout stuff, that over the years has been bestowed upon me.

I'm happy to have it.

I like to think that I never lost sight about who this organization is for or about.

I really enjoy spending time with our youth members, I'm honored that they are willing to spend time with me.

I'm aware that some people get along with and work better with adults than they do kids. This doesn't make them "Bad"! We have room at the table for anyone and everyone who is willing to serve and if past service isn't there? We can help them with training's.

When the SM lands himself in jail and the unit is falling apart, does it really matter if the Unit Commissioner can tie a turks head? Or does he or she need other skills?

Ea.

 

Longhaul,

Help me out!!

What are you asking??(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Beavah]

Yah, I think Longhaul was tryin' to get a sense of what a Commissioner who had not spent a lot of time as a Direct Contact unit leader thought about Quality. In other words, somebody who really has only learned the definitions from da training rather than from direct personal experience.

 

So far only us folks with a lot of unit service time have jumped in to hijack it, eh? I was goin' to as well, but thought I'd best not otherwise nobody he's lookin' for would feel comfortable enough to respond.

 

B

 

[LongHaul]

Eamonn, I meant no offense but as Beavah pointed out I was looking for some "signs" or "markers" a UC would look for in determining quality according to training not experience. I've just finished Cub Roundtable Commissioner training but as I will only deal with the Webelos Leader break out I feel I'm on solid ground. I've been a WDL 3 separate times and have taken 3 groups thru the 20 month program. I've served as Webelos to Scout Transition Chair for about 6 years. I've been WDL trainer for 10 years. I've been an SM two different times the latest for 13 years but don't feel qualified to be a UC unless I took some additional training in areas I'm not up to speed on. As for knots and awards I wear mine too, I'm proud of the 35 years I've spent being served or serving others through this program. I don't see accepting awards or displaying recognitions for service and training. I accept that some adults feel otherwise. What concerns me is the amount of volunteers I am faced with that wear awards and recognitions and expound on their credentials then present personal views as policy or fact. I attended a Council Training Day and was told by the #3 person in training that the Webelos program was too long and that Webelos dens should not associate with boy scout troops until second because it causes the Webelos to loose interest in Webelos program. I listened to a leader promoting NYLT and later in a class titled "The New Scout Patrol" he told us that new scout patrols don't work. He then went on for the rest of the class relating his personal stories. The #2 person in training claims that Baloo and IOLSWDL are interchangeable and in fact her council does both together in 6 hours. For the most part I find the things I hear from people wearing silver tabs and a Commissioners Patch are catch phrases or not necessarily correct. I try not to follow that stereotype.

 Beavah, go ahead and hijack I'm not having any luck anyway.

 LH

[Lisabob]

Well ok there LH, I've got one foot halfway in the door here. I was planning to be a UC to a cub pack, went to commissioner's college (which was great, by the way - learned a lot, met some interesting people, definitely worth my time and money), talked with my DC. But then I ended up taking on a more time consuming position with a different aspect of "the district," something I sort of would rather not do, but they needed to fill the position and I am both capable and available, and not entirely unwilling. So I've held off on UC'ing for now because I'm not sure I could do both, well, at the same time.

 

Anyway, all that by way of saying I don't know if I fit into your criteria for this thread, but as you yourself said, you're not getting the sort of people responding that you were hoping for, anyway. Probably because most of the regular folks on this board don't fit the profile you drew.

 

But, if I had signed on as a UC - my caveat was that I only wanted to work with packs, not troops, crews, or teams. I've done a good bit of reading and observing at the troop level, and I've been a troop committee member for a few years. I've camped with a couple of troops here and there. But I've never been an ASM or SM and I doubt I will be anytime soon. In what may be a boundless fit of arrogance, I think I more or less "get" the outline of the program, but still, without that hands-on experience, I would be uncomfortable advising an SM on many things. On the other hand, I have a good deal of hands-on experience with packs, including both the experience of picking up the pieces when things go badly wrong, and the experience of helping a pack double in size by virtue of a really good program. I can speak from experience about what it takes to fill most jobs in a pack because I've done most of them, and I have a good sense of where the problems are likely to be because I've had most of them and worked through them without much help. My UCs, you see, were mainly people who had little to no experience with cubbing, or whose experience was mainly "long ago, in a galaxy far, far away." They were - and are - great people with lots of scouting knowledge, but they were probably better suited to work with troops than packs.

 

So, what constitutes a "Quality" cub program? For starters, a CM who understands that his or her major role is to be the "ringleader in chief" and not the "chief executive" or worse, "dictator." This person needs to be willing to be goofy in public, well-loved and even a little awe-inspiring to all those kids, respected and hopefully liked by their parents.

 

And then, individual dens with den leaders who took the job because they wanted to, not just because they needed to put somebody's name on the sheet of paper! Unwilling den leaders don't do a good job.

 

And then, depth of parent support (committee members too). You can run a cub pack on the hard work and steam of a couple of families, but when they burn out or their boys move on to boy scouts, or they leave, the whole pack is in danger.

 

And then program - pack meetings that the boys want to come to, dens meeting on their own at least a couple of times a month, etc.. It isn't that this is unimportant, but I've found that if you get the above leadership issues right, the program flows from there because the right leaders will actively seek out "best practice" for their program through training, through reading their leader manuals, through networking (with UCs!), and so on.

[click23]

I am a UC, for little over a year now, but I have never been a direct contact leader.

 

What constitutes a Quality program? for a troop, an organized meeting ran by the boys, teaching scout skills to younger scouts by older scouts, an active recruiting plan, financially sound, good boy turn out, patrol activity, strong adult presence, and a strong outdoor program, but I would say a majority of troop are not like this, but as long as this is a goal and making improvements to get there I would still consider it a quality program. An yes, all of the criteria list above came from the UCs Troop Worksheet. I also look at the strength of the committee, if a PLC is being used, and if the boys are having a good time.

 

 

 

How do you identify a Quality Program? After I visit a unit I will fill out a UCs Troop Worksheet, I also have the leader fill out a self assessment at the beginning of the year.

 

How much time does it take to tell if a program is Quality or not. Depends on the unit, so you could walk in the door and tell if they are or they are not, or it could take a few months of evaluation to see.

 

 

Where the people that trained you direct contact leaders for any length of time? My commissioner basic was taught by several guys that I would guess had 50 years or better combined as direct contact leaders. My NLE, scoutmaster and cub leader specifics as well as the troop committee challenge was taught by a guy that has several years as a direct contact leader in a troop and pack. My venturing specifics was taught by a team of venturing leaders and some training people that were past direct contact leaders. The people that taught at the Trainer Development Conference were all either current or previous direct contact leaders. And finally, my woodbadge troop guide is a scoutmaster of a fairly large troop.

 

 

 

 

Robert

[Beavah]

Where the people that trained you direct contact leaders for any length of time?

 

Yah, so here's where I think LongHaul's point comes in, eh? Not to pick on click23 at all, mind you. But click thinks it's important that his trainers had real experience.

 

A UC is a trainer for a unit. Shouldn't da UC also have real experience?

 

Would we want someone who had been trained by real NRA-certified instructors and gun owners but never actually fired a gun themselves to be training & supervisin' firearm usage? Not that scoutin' is exactly the same - it's actually more complicated!

 

I'm mostly with Eamonn. I think that for the most part in most places, the Commissioner Corps is broken. It's been effectively replaced by da Professional Staff and check-box management techniques. Warm bodies are used to "fill" commissioner positions, who either don't have hands-on experience in a unit or only have long-term contact with one unit and want everyone else to do it "their way."

 

Yah, sure, we create bubbles here and there in some districts. And there are a few good individual commissioners left in other districts. But overall, it ain't workin' that great.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

OK, I'll bite.

 

I'm RT staff right now (which is a Commissioner's Service position), and have told my DC I would like to train as a UC this time next year (EagleSon will be in college, which will be a good way to fill the time gap).

 

I've been a MC, CC, and CR during EagleSon's BoyScouting/Venturing time.

 

Things I've seen from sister units, as well as my own...

 

1) Does the Committee meet in a businesslike manner, get tasks from the SM/SPL, and get things done, or is it a "parents info" session?

 

2) Do BORs help the Scout look into "who he is," and help him think about "who he wants to be," or are they a re-test?

 

3) At a PLC, is the SPL the chair, or are adults talking more than kids? Is there more "note taking" when adults are talking, or is it ideas and thoughts and "ponderers?"

 

4) What's happening at the Troop Trailer? I expect to see the Troop QM(s) and the patrol qm's keeping the gear neat, servicable, and accessible. If I see lots of adults, or I see a trailer where the equipment is unloved, there's something deeper to look at!

 

5) What does the Troop in general and the Patrols in particular look like in camp? Ragamuffin gear, open can beenie-weenies, litter, all speak volumes to the strength or weakness of the outdoor program.

 

6) What are the Patrols, and the Troop as a whole, doing in camp? There's a difference between constructive activity and graba@@.

 

7) Who is running the Troop meeting?

 

8) What does a SM Conference sound like?

 

Does that make sense LH?

 

PS: Don't get me started on the BSA "Quality" metrics. IMNSHO, they are a checklist, not something with real thought behind them.

[click23]

I do agree that if I had more hands on experience that it would benefit the me and the units that I work with. But on the flip side who would you want as a UC, an inexperienced scouter that is trained by the book, one that had been a scoutmaster for years of a troop that was adult ran and then "promoted", or not even having one at all. I had to think long and hard about becoming a UC because of my inexperience, but in the end I realized that if I was willing to do the job the right way that I would be better than having no one, and that I would take every training course that was offered to me.

 

I also thing the commissioners service is broken, probably beyond repair. In my district, I am the only active UC, although we one register a few weeks ago. Our DCommish is a wonderful lady, but she is just not doing the job.

 

Part of our problem is that we had a DE for several years that wanted everything done his way, and he had some figureheads put in as DChair and DCommish, so that he could do everything the way he wanted it done. This went great, and everyone loved it, until he moved on and we went through 3 DEs in two years with a FD filling in in the gaps. Our new DE is great at his job so far. The problem is now is that he just wants to do his job and not the jobs of the volunteers, and now the volunteers are not wanting to step up. District committee and the commissioner service is now in shambles.

 

Robert

[acco40]

First a little background - Commissioners must not be registered simultaneously as unit leaders. Some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a son in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, but their principle Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities. Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position.

 

Now, many or should I say most Commissioners either were or still are unit leaders (SM or SAs).

 

Second - I thought the Quality Program was going the way of the dinosaurs; repaced by the Centennial Award.

 

Third - in my work as a UC, a quality program is a program that delivers the promise of Scouting to the youth. A Quality Unit (or District or Council) is one that meets the metrics for that specific award. There is an attempt that these metrics try and measure if a unit is delivering the promise of Scouting. The Centennial Award is an improvement IMO because the unit has input into what their goals (at least from a magnitude perspective).