Man Scouts (spinoff)

[Beavah]

 

Yah, LongHaul started this on another thread, so I thought I'd try to move it before da hijack was complete

 

If being fairly active in District and Council means the adults themselves are active at these levels then they fall under what I call "Man Scouts" a species to be avoided at all costs.

 

Lisabob inquired:

 

"Oh, LH, I can't let that slip by! Do tell, what are the attributes of a "Man Scout?"

 

[Lisabob]

Oops, apologies, didn't mean to hijack the other thread!

 

LH, I hope you find your way here because I am really getting a chuckle out of the image forming in my head of what a "Man Scout" might be.

[Cubmaster Randy]

Are y'all talking about "Adult Scouts of America"?

[Eamonn]

All this talk about what knot not to wear?

Ducks that smell like ducks?

Man Scouts?

Has me feeling like a real twit!

Ea.

[LongHaul]

Well Lisabob let me see if I can paint you my picture and see if it resembles yours;

 

DOCUMENTART TYPE NARATION: (Walt Disneys voice) Ah the Man Scout. This species is often found lurking in and around Boy Scout troops. Hard to distinguish at times and very adept at disguising itself, the Man Scout can hijack a program with lightning speed. Lets take a closer look;

 

The Man Scout was not necessarily a Boy Scout in its youth though some were and many think they were. The Man Scout sees the scouting program as his chance to marvel the young with his leadership and training. Man Scouts generally surround themselves with other Man Scouts and rule over the youth group called a troop. The Man Scout knows that the scouting program can not really be left in the hands of children. The Man Scout plans the yearly program, some times a week at a time. It plans all the activities and outings. Where it may seem to involve the youth it always reserves approval rights over menu, patrol formation (smaller youth groups with in the troop) and figure head youth leaders. Man Scouts are easiest to spot when usurping youth leadership roles or interrupting youth leaders often in mid sentence during troop gatherings. Man Scouts often take it upon themselves to handle the training of the youth but tend to do this only after appointing a youth to do the training and then interrupting them. They are a long winded species when in the presence of young males but usually stray from the initial point and concentrate on their own past, retelling story after story. Man Scouts tend to hold that only adults are wise enough to tell when a youth should be elevated within the troop. This is called advancement and is presided over by adults often only one or two adults within the group. Man Scouts as a group usually defend their territory by pointing out how incapable of leadership the youth tend to be. Man Scouts love to camp and if not for these little kids running around could be having the greatest of times.

 

To this end Man Scouts also engage in group activities with other Man Scouts though actual Boy Scout Adult Leaders are normally present at these gatherings. Man Scouts love to teach other Man Scouts and try to imitate Boy Scout Leaders when at these gatherings. They learn the calls very quickly and can be heard saying boy led, patrol method, PLC, JLT and a newer call NYTL though the actual group actions these calls refer to are not usually found in a Man Scouts home troop. They attend gathering after gathering called Training or Training Sessions and are very resilient in that these gatherings have little affect on them except when the gathering results in added plumage for a Man Scouts chest or neck wear. These symbols of attendance are used by the Man Scout to justify his presence at a gathering and explain why others should take his lead or heed his advice.

 

Interactions among the troops led by Man Scouts can be very different. Some are very much regimented and often resemble a paramilitary group, while others exhibit no apparent structure at all. They are identified by the fact that youth have little control or power within the group. Activities tend to be repetitive and these groups can often be found in the same places on a yearly cycle. When Man Scouts allow their home troops to associate with other troops they are usually careful to camp close to troops being run by other Man Scouts and seldom welcome Boy Scout Adult Leaders to study the Man Scout troop in the outdoors.

 

LH

 

[PeteM]

Man Scout = Jamb..... never mind

[BrentAllen]

That's a much different definition than around these parts. Man Scouts around here are adult Scouters who never associate with real live Boy Scouts. They are involved at the District and Council level, but rarely, if ever, do anything with boys in a Troop. They take all types of training, but never do anything with it. They search out committees to serve on so they can stay busy, providing plenty of excuses why they can't help out on a camping trip or help some Scouts wanting to earn a Merit Badge. I picture them as the King and Queen in the movie Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang - very much afraid of the kids.

 

Just being involved at District and Council does not make one a Man Scout. In fact, we WANT Troop Scouters involved at District and Council, so that we don't get over-run by Man Scouts!

[eolesen]

Man Scouts around here are adult Scouters who never associate with real live Boy Scouts. They are involved at the District and Council level, but rarely, if ever, do anything with boys in a Troop.

 

Hmmm. Brent just described a good percentage of the Commish staff I've come in contact with...

[click23]

While I agree with LongHauls second definition, I really don't like his first definition "If being fairly active in District and Council means the adults themselves are active at these levels" and the part of Brents post that eolesen pointed out.

 

I have been a unit commissioner for a little over a year now since an absence from scouting since I was a kid. I have very little direct contact youth, but "job" is not to be a direct contact leader. Direct contact leader refers to those unit leaders who deal most directly with the youth and are responsible for the delivery of the Scouting program to the youth members of a unit. My job is to be a friend of the unit, help them with any problem they may have, and make sure they are running a quality program("make sure" is not it happens now or else, it means I will help them in any way that I can to make it happen). I just don't see why this would make someone want to avoid me at all costs.

 

As for troop people being involved on at the district and council level, I agree some troop, pack and crew people are needed there, the ones who job it is to be there is the chartered reps. By definition the are automatically members of the district committee and the council, where they represent the interests of your unit and your CO.(This message has been edited by click23)

[fgoodwin]

I'm an ASM in my son's troop and also active at the district level as a UC and on the training team, so I've had a chance to observe both species of "Man Scouts" (the troop species as well as the district-council species).

 

I think many Man Scouts at the district-council level move on from a troop funtion to a district-council function when their sons leave Scouting, but they want to stay involved. W/o a son in a unit, the Man Scout feels he might better contribute at the district-council level.

 

And while many start out with the best of intentions, I think after being away from the unit-level program for a few years, they either forget what its like to be "in the trenches" or the program changes after they leave and they are no longer experts in the current program (hence the war stories "this is how I did it way back when . . .").

 

I think with a little effort, the damage from district-council Man Scouts can be limited. The greater risk is the damage done by troop-level Man Scouts, because in their efforts to be Super Scouters, they actually hold back the development of the youth we are supposed to be serving. I don't know what can be done about troop-level Man Scouts, but I know they exist.

 

Anyway, that's my 2

[LongHaul]

No judgments here just inquiry. Click23, what prompted you to return at the District level rather than find a troop that could use your help? The help you offer troops and your ability to "spot" a quality program come from where? Are you telling them what you know or what you've been told by someone else? I over looked the section of Man Scouts Brent pointed out and in some cases they are the most harmful. The adult that gets his "expertise" only from books and others but never OTJ hands on experience has a tendency to pigeon hole program. They are so determined to "help" create a "quality program" in someone else's troop that they can offed those in the direct contact positions. In the late 60's early 70's the Wood Badge Courses in my area were staffed mostly by men that had never been SMs. Never been actual direct contact leaders that ran a quality program. They found their place telling others how to do something they never did or never accomplished when they did try to do it. Turned a lot of adult scout leaders off. The Man Scouts I was warning about from the initial thread are in part reinforced by those Man Scouts at the District and Council levels. A leader that is prone to run "his" unit "his" way claims justification when confronted by someone that only knows what the book says or what's been told to them.

I once met a professional scouter that actually said "Scouting would be a great program if it wasn't for the volunteers" I see Man Scouts as having the same outlook, "Scouting would be a great program if it wasn't for having to teach the youth". These adults want camping clubs, boy's clubs run by adults. They set up play dates and call them troop meetings and outings. The boys are having fun because they are entertained and required to take on little responsibility.

LH

[LongHaul]

In another thread we are commenting on a problem a troop is having in controlling scouts behavior. As background information nwscouttrainer posted this;

The troop is actually one of the oldest troops in our council - operating since 1914. It has a reputation for being one of the best troops in the district, with several leaders being key players for the district and the council. The SM, ASM, Committee Chair, several committee members are all trained...even Woodbadge trained and, in fact, have served as Woodbadge staff the last few years. The average age of these leaders ranges from 50 to 83.

Can anyone else see the paw prints of the Man Scout here? Average age of leader 50 to 83!!! Wood Badge staff for last few years!!! Go read the whole thread "Conflict among the scouts" and ask yourself where is the adult leadership in training the youth leaders, in supporting the youth leaders, in youth recruitment, in adult recruitment, in developing a program that leaves little time for argument. Off being Man Scouts is what come to mind for me.

LH

[Stosh]

On the flip side of the coin is the adult scouter that spends all of their time with the boys and are seldom considered for the merit awards such as District Award of Merit or Silver Beaver.

 

Unless one takes an active role outside the troop they are pretty much toast. Those who score big with FOS or endowment efforts, boards, commissions, etc. and other highly visible district and council efforts get the acolades.

 

Case in point 3 adults all take Wood Badge together, all get the "District Spark Plug" award for up and coming leaders, yet two are now DAM and Silver Beaver and the third who has remained active in the troop/crew (SM and Advisor) has never "progressed". Yet that third person has more years in adult scouting than the other two.

 

Conclusion: if you wish to work with the boys, don't expect much if any recognition outside the realm of the boys themselves. The generals wear the brass and the privates do the work.

 

Stosh

[LongHaul]

Exactly the point Beavah makes, what is the goal of the adult in scouting? To seek accolades or to provide a program within which youth can grow and learn? If the DAM and SB are important "goals" then just maybe this adult has set the wrong goals. Where is the glory in being a General if all your "troops" are KIA or MIA.

LH

[Beavah]

Wonder what yeh all think.

 

I had a Camp Director tell me once that a lot of da Man Scouts were former boy scouts who never made Eagle.

 

So as adults, they're out pursuin' Adult Advancement rather than workin' the program to help kids advance. He put a lot of us Woodbadgers in dat category. Da shoe fits uncomfortably well (ticket=project, etc.).

 

B