Value For Money?

[Eamonn]

Looking at some numbers.

Our Council has had to make some cuts and the 2006 Budget shows a balanced budget with totals of $1,321,245.00. down from $1,451,467.00 in 2005.

Membership shows that we have

Total Cub Scouts: 3,223

Boy Scouts: 1,653

Venturers: 250

TOTAL MEMBERS: 5,126

TOTAL LFL/EXP: 4,052

TOTAL YOUTH 9,243

 

Rechartering in the council is January for Cub Scouts and February for everyone else. As a rule (in fact I have never seen it different) the numbers go way when once the charters are in.

If we divide $1,321,245.00. by 9,243 we get a number of $142.95 .

Which kind of goes along with the $150.00 a year to keep a kid in the program that we hear so much about.

But if we look at the LFL program.

In the Council the Program was under the Class 4 Program Director, but while he still has all the duties that he did have (Camp and program "Stuff") he is now the LFL Class 4 Senior Learning For Life Program Director. He manages the 3 part time and one full time Learning For Life Program Aides. The full timer isn't really full time as she only works ten months a year.

Sadly LFL doesn't have a separate budget.

 

I seem to remember and I hope that someone will help me out here!! That the fee National collects for LFL members is $7.50. Please don't quote me as I'm not 100% on that number.

The programs are all run in schools. So other than some paper and office supplies there is very little cost to the council other than Employee Compensation.

I don't know what the real numbers are because of the lack of a budget. But I'd take a wild guess that without the Executive the ten month program with 3 part time and one full time is about $50,000. Add on another $5,000 for supplies.

And we have:

Membership fees: 4,052 X $7.50 = $30,390

Supplies and Program Aide Comp.= $55,000

LFL Program Executive (??) = $60,000

Total cost of LFL is about $145,390

Or Approx: $35.88 per member

If we go back to the $1,321,245.00. and remove the cost of LFL ($145,390) We get $1,175,855.

If we then divide: $1,175,855. By the Total Youth members: 5,126 we arrive at $239.39.

It seems to me that $239.39 for a Council to provide service to a youth member is out of line. That's $4.41 a week.

I love Scouting and I don't have any beef with paying the National fee, but I fail to see where the Youth in the Ship come anywhere near receiving $4.41 a week in service from the Council.

I used to think that the much quoted $125.00 a year was out of whack for a Cub Scout, but $239.39 is just way out.

If sweeping changes are not made soon I really do fear that Councils are going to price themselves out of existence.

We as volunteers do have to give some thought as to what level of service we expect? And how much we are willing to pay for it?

Of course there is a very good argument that could be made for increasing the membership. Of course if we could keep the cost the same and have twice as many youth the cost per youth member would go down!!

Sadly that doesn't seem to be happening, we are not growing and with the decline in membership we are losing families that could donate to FOS, along with our Popcorn Sales-team.

We are seeing the costs of the services that Councils provide go up, not only to cover the cost of the event or the camp but also to bring more money into the Council and help cover other unrelated costs.

With the decline in membership and the money members bring in the service providers are having to spend less time providing service and more time raising money just to help cover what they are paid.

While not trying to blow my own trumpet, I was really saddened to see our council have to "Raid" the endowment fund this year in order to just pay the bills. I have over the years donated to the endowment fund and it seems that any idea of endowment has been replaced by a "Get out of jail free fund."

A few councils in the area are running or have run Capital Campaigns. Some of these have been very successful. While it is great to see large sums of money coming into Scouting, I'm worried that these are not going to help us in the long term. How often can you go back asking for major gifts? Most foundations want to see a specific plan on where the money will be spent. Many will not give any money what so ever for endowment.

For almost 100 years we have been saying that "A Scout is Thrifty." Maybe it's time we started setting the example.

$239.00 is not value for money.

Eamonn.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Beavah]

"A Scout is Thrifty." Maybe it's time we started setting the example. $239.00 is not value for money.

 

Yah, right on!

 

 

[SemperParatus]

"$239.00 is not value for money."

 

Its a rip-off is what it is. Unsuspecting donors are being bilked by a bunch of suits hiding behind boys in the name of a good cause.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I'm willing to give my council the benefit of the doubt and say that no one is intentionally ripping us off. But I do think that there are a bunch of people whose job is to fund-raise their own salary, and it's not clear how that benefits anyone.

 

I know we don't get much value from the council, but that money is going somewhere. It would be interesting to see an actual breakdown of where all the employees' time was going. Is it 40% fund-raising, 20% paperwork, 20% camp maintenance, 10% starting new units, 10% recruiting? Or what? Do they spend time setting up training? Fixing BB-guns? Setting up camporees? Running a web-site? If we looked at all the time spent, we (or someone) could decide whether we were really getting bang for the buck (value for money) for that activity.

 

I'm sure there will always be donors available for worthy causes. Harvard still gets donors even though it already has $25 billion. I think there will always be people who are willing to donate for a new building at camp, especially if they get naming rights. But I do think that most of our programs should be cash-flow neutral - they should charge whatever it costs.

 

People around here will pay $125 to have their kids play lacrosse for a season. So I think they'd pay for Scouting as long as they were seeing the value.

 

Oak Tree

[Lisabob]

Interesting thread. Eamonn I agree that $239/boy needs to be justified - though I'm not sure I followed the calculations correctly.

 

Again I can't speak to other councils, and I don't have all the details regarding my own council's budget. But I can say: We have some excellent DEs who work hard and are at the beck and call of unit leaders. I don't begrudge them their paychecks. We have three wonderful camp properties, all of which are well maintained and well utilized. We have good district and council level programs, at least for cubs (I'm less familiar with programs at the troop and crew level). Our FOS campaigns, which have been hurt in recent years due to local United Way embezzlement scandals that seem to have "spilled over" in terms of perceptions plus a terrible economy in this area, are still well supported by the community.

 

But charging higher dues to cover the cost? Wouldn't float around here, at least not for cubs. A lot of parents rebelled when one pack charged $50/year. They'd probably vanish entirely if anybody raised dues to $125+/year. I agree it is illogical - some of these same parents do pay much more than that for "junior" to participate in sports leagues - but that's my gut feeling anyway.

 

I have much less experience with troops but my impression so far (after a year) is that, if anything, our council and district do more for cubs than for troops, and that boy scouting is more costly to parents/families but less costly to the district/council than cubs is. We pay annual troop dues plus camping/activity fees every month. There don't seem to be a whole lot of troop programs offered by district or council other than fall and spring camporees (they run cub day and resident camps at the camp properties in the summer but not boyscout camps). So if anything I'd say it is even harder to justify $239/boy at this level than at the cub level. But maybe I'm missing things here.

 

Lisa'bob

 

[Oak Tree]

I like my DE a lot. He's a great guy, and appears to work hard. But there's virtually nothing for him to do with our pack. I'm sure he'd be willing to help if we needed some help, but our pack is pretty much self-sufficient.

 

I'm not actually advocating raising dues to meet the $125 or $239 level. For one thing, if we actually paid that much money, then council would have plenty and could cut out all the fund-raisers' salaries, and then the fees, ironically, would drop. For another, I'm only advocating that people pay for the value they actually get. E.g. I don't see anything wrong with charging a fee to use the camp.

 

So here's the rhetorical question: If the council's budget is balanced, then what's the problem? In some combination or other (dues and donations) people are paying for what they see as value. So why do we care what it averages out to? My answer to that would be that I don't really feel all that comfortable doing a FOS presentation and asking people to donate to council when I don't see what value we actually get for that money. From Eamonn's posts, I'm just guessing that he doesn't like the soliciting either.

 

It's a little hard to say exactly what value we're getting...I'm sure there's some value to having professionals in place just to give the organization some structure. But it sure feels to me like there's a lot of inefficiency in the system, too.

 

Oak Tree

[Owl62]

In our area, when people complain of the cost of Scouting, I often hear from those who never say anything that even hints that there are any problems in the program, "the money is going to a good cause" or "it's for the Scouts" or other such comments. I doubt that much of the money spent on uniforms, and other fees actually directly benefit Scouts. I doubt that any of the money spent on uniforms actually goes to Scouts. I think that most of it goes to the manufacturer. Same for other items.

 

We conduct a function for one of our programs that has no fees for the participants other than what they have to spend for transportation there and home, for food that they bring, or for items that they use while there. Of course there is no activity patch, hat, t-shirt or certificate. But the Scouts get to do the activity and have fun and learn. I suspect that the pros are not happy though because the activity generates no revenue for the district or council.

 

Why can't more of our functions be conducted on a pay as you go basis rather than a fixed fee?

 

Our unit does that as much as possible. We have no membership dues, only the registration fee. Unit members know that they must then pay as they go, activity by activity, and they prefer it that way. They can choose those acitivities that they want to participare in and pay for. We conduct fund raisers that all in the unit participate in to generate money for those who are financially challenged and to my knowledge not one Scout in the unit has had to skip an acitivity solely because of lack of funding. We don't have custom unit cap or t-shirt, or neckerchiefs, nor tents that are all alike (although those are options if the unit membership decides to raise the money for them).

 

It's amazing to me that some people think that money has to be spent and revenue generated on things that really are not necessary to the program to make the program work.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

There are several "misconceptions" in the above posts, I think. The DE's job is not to "help the unit"...that is the job description of the Commissioner Corps. In a typical council, most of the budget goes to overhead, not to direct benefit of the unit (some will argue it's the same thing). Things like salaries, utilities, rent, property maintenance, camp maintenance, paper, xerox machine rental, DE's vehicle lease (or mileage for POVs), travel expenses for Professional meetings and training, etc. I have no idea what the LFL program costs in this council...it's never mentioned and it doesn't seem to be a big presence in the schools (nobody I know has ever heard of it, and my wife is a school system employee). When we plan district or council events, the council has a budget planning sheet that we use to determine the cost. It always includes fees for "insurance" and "council administrative fee", even if the event is held in a school or church and even if we never use any council resources, such as copy paper (when I was doing training, I paid for all handouts myself). All event fees are paid to directly to the council, and all expenses must be reimbursed from the council. The volunteers must pay all expenses out of pocket, and then submit receipts and get reimbursement after the event....sometimes 6 or 8 months later. Exception would be a contract which can only be signed by the SE.

 

I would have thought that the Council operating budgets were developed by the Council finance committee, with input from the SE (staff and office needs) and input from all the committees for program needs. Why do we have an Executive Board, if the SE is allowed to have unlimited authority??

 

Yes, I have seen DE's do all of those things...from meeting with prospective CO's to being the "staff advisor" to district committees, to helping a Tiger hold a bow for the first time, to splitting wood at a camp work day. Near as I can figure, my DE averages 11-12 bucks an hour considering all of the hours he puts in. Contrast this to the $128,000+ that the SE makes (2004 IRS form 900)...a guy we never see unless he pops into a district or council level committee meeting to read us volunteers the riot act and threaten us. Real nice chap.

 

Things are way out of whack, and it's no wonder councils are floundering.

[John-in-KC]

Eamonn,

 

And you've been a District Commissioner, and if memory serves me, you've been on the Executive Board.

 

What I didn't see in in your posting were the things Scoutldr discussed:

- How much is property upkeep at the Scout Camp?

- How much do Council vehicles cost (if provided)?

- How much does your United Way send TO you?

- How much do FOS Community and Popcorn bring in?

- How much is FOS Family put on the hook?

 

Does anyone know of any requirements for transparency in Scoutings' budget process? We are, after all, non-profits (which means at the big macro level, expenses=costs ... some activities may underwrite other activities).

 

John

Now a COR and a voting member

[packsaddle]

There is also a perspective in which $239 isn't all that much per year. If the parents of this unit KNEW the money was going to be spent on the unit and their sons, they'd have no problem coming up with that, probably more. But to them (and to me, for that matter), the comment about council people hired to fund-raise their own salaries has the ring of truth. Outside of the camp (and we'd pay more for that too) this council doesn't have much of a presence in the lives of the boys. Except, of course, at FOS time.

 

That said, if a council brought this figure to the parents and said they had to pay, at least this would be an honest deal. The council would be laying it on the line and the parents could vote for those salary lines with their checkbooks. The market would take care of everything after that.

[John-in-KC]

I'm getting ready to go out and do FOS Family presentations. My Council says the magic number per Scout is about $150. That's a moderately substantial delta from $239. IMO Eamonn's Scout Executive owes the FOS presenters some frank talk about the cost of operations in his Council.

[Eamonn]

Hi John-in-KC,

I don't really understand your point.

The $1,321,245.00. Is the entire council budget.

I don't see why the fact that we will spend X amount of dollars in a specific area makes any never mind?

The budget presented was a balanced budget.

My point is that the membership numbers are a little of base.

Councils are adding the LFL membership numbers into the total.

If you take the LFL numbers out of the total things take on a different light.

I tried to be as fair as I could when I took my guesstimate at how much LFL costs.

Budgets are strange animals.

Let's for a minute take an example.

The walk-in-cooler at camp isn't working right.

If we replace it with a new one it becomes a capitol expense with money taken out of that budget, but if we can't afford to replace it we then repair it and it comes out of the maintenance budget.

I think you will find that the Council Executive Board votes on the Council Budget. So while in our case the revenue from camp will be $353,535. When the Board looks at the Council Budget it doesn't know how much of the $31,200 that is budgeted for recognitions will be spent at camp. It doesn't know how much of the $26,200 will be spent on sending guys to camp school or DE's to PDR, it's all under one heading.

At the end of the day it's the bottom lines that count.

I just think that LFL clouds the big picture.

Eamonn.

[scoutldr]

If LFL is separate in every other way, why don't they have their own budget? In my opinion, LFL should be self-sustaining, if they are to have different membership requirements. So, if I read Eamonn correctly, my FOS money supports LFL whether I am intending to support that program and it's standards, or not.

[Eamonn]

Of course depending on the Council, it could be that LFL is bringing in money from sources that might be unwilling to give to traditional programs?

Of course if a COR were to ask to a copy of the Council budget and the membership numbers, doing the math isn't that hard.

Eamonn.

[Newbie Den Leader]

From my perspective as a little assistant cub scout leader, I personally don't see my council spending $120/year on my Cub Scout son as they claim. Yes, when you divide total revenues by total membership you will get a "per scout" figure, but that figure cannot be relevant for every active Scout in the council.

 

What I paid for my Cub Scout:

Partial Scout Uniform - $65 (does not include pants)

Registration Fee & Boys Life - $22/year

Dues to the Pack - $60/year ($5/month)

Campouts and other misc. activties - $120/year

 

What I paid as an adult leader:

Full Uniform - $115.00

Registration Fee - $10/year

Friends Of Scouts - $120/year (voluntary, but a monetary contribution)

Cost of Basic Leader Training - $20

Volunteering my time to the Pack and fund-raisers for the Pack - Priceless

 

What my Council paid for my Cub Scout:

Bobcat Badge & Wolf Badge ($5.00?)

 

The rest of his cost I'm not sure about: Training? Campground maintenance? Insurance? These are likely and expected council expenses, but are indirect costs that do not directly affect his experience as a Cub Scout. Much of what he does as a Cub Scout is close to home and funded locally by the Pack and his parents.