Webelos & Camping

[Eagle Foot]

What extent can Webelos Scouts camp with Boy Scouts? For example: Webelos (2nd year) are invited to a Camporee where the Boy Scouts will be camping in patrol form using only what they can carry, packing all of their food in. Each patrol group will move to a station set up for wilderness survival instructions, each group will be allow 30 minutes for demonstration, information, and some hands on. Can Webelos participate as part of a scout patrol? Can they camp with the boys without an adult present but near?

 

The Webelos who must have an adult present (parent or guardian)can the adult be present but not directly in contact? But on the property? How far removed? Does BSA policy require the adult be present with the Webelos while they are with the Boy Scouts? Where are the supervision boundaries?

 

Guide to Safe Scouting

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his mother or father. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts are encouraged for dens of fifth-grade Webelos Scouts with their parents to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

 

[Twocubdad]

I don't know that there is an official explaination, I think "under supervision" is the key phrase. It is difficult to supervise someone from a mile across camp. If the adults are dropping the Webelos with the Boy Scouts and then spending the weekend in the staff lodge, that's not within the spirit of the regulation. That's not to say mom or dad has to shadow the boy's every move. There's nothing wrong with a parent hanging back on a particular activity if the Scouts are otherwise adequately supervised.

 

Webelos don't have the camping skills to camp as their own patrol with the parents at some distance away. Fire building, wood tools, cooking, ect., are all skills they will learn next year. Parents and trained leaders need to be camping among the boys to supervise and help with these activites. Many of my Scouts, my own son included, like to camp in a tent with their buddies instead of with mom or dad. That's fine, but the parents still need to be in earshot.

 

But in addition to that, I don't believe the campout you describe is appropriate for Webelos. First, Webelos are not permitted on district or council Boy Scout camporees. A Webelos/Scout campout needs to be one pack, one troop with activities planned for the skill level of the Webelos. Secondly, the style of camping and activities on this Camporee sound to me like they are above the skill level of Webelos.

[fboisseau]

The problem I see with the campout you are looking at is that BSA wants the activities that the Webelos participate in are geared to their program and level. What you are doing at this campout is geared to Boy Scouts and their program. What I may suggest is first you look to see if there is a another campout that they can participate in that has activities that are geared to their program or could be with minimum changes. If that is not available add some activities to the program that are geared to the Webelos such as putting together a survival kit and putting up a tent using a tarp, and allow them to observe the other activities. Also keep in mind that Webelos should have their adult partner for the campout to help show them how to do things (not do things for them that they can do for themselves). Keep in mind that they probably have not been camping before and do not have other experienced Scouts in their patrol.

[SR540Beaver]

Eagle,

 

You might search the older threads for this subject, it has been discussed several times before. You'll find a variety of views. My son's Webelos Den went to Camporee this past March with a Troop. We all stayed at the same campsite, but in seperate groups. The two patrol were set up close to each other at one end of the site, then the scouters were set up in the middle of the site and our den was set up on the other end of the site. Each group was close enough to recognize faces at either end of the site, but far enough away that we couldn't hear noise from one group to the next. Webelos camping is required to be with parents or a designated adult. The only adult they can tent with is their parent. They did split our boys up into their patrols for participating in the stations and we provided at least two deep (sometimes more) leadership to accompany the patrols to the stations. Rather than the patrols cooking seperately, the unit cooked all together with the Scouts and the Webelos assigned KP tasks by the PL's. A lot of people point out that the activities are not age appropriate for the Webelos. The stations we participated in were nothing that was too difficult for our boys. The Scouts took the lead and let them help. They did some orienteering, had to determine the height of a flagpole without any measuring device, etc. Probably the most risky was a fire building competition in a raised fire pit, but our boys looked for and supplied tender, sticks and wood and didn't handle any fire. It was a very successful trip for both the Troop and our Den.

 

PS Twocub, I disagree about Webelos not being allowed at council camporees. We had many many Webelos dens at the Camporee we went to. It seems to be heavily used as a recruiting tool in my area. Come to think of it, it may have been a district camporee rather than a council camporee. I don't know if that makes a difference?(This message has been edited by kwc57)

[Twocubdad]

I think we've chewed that steak before, kwc. If the district or council camporee is designed to be a Webelos/Scout event -- like the one you've described before -- I don't see any problem, even if it technically voilates the letter of the law. In fact on the other thread, I said your event sounded like a great recruiting tool for the district. The key is that there are age and skill-level activities planned for the Webelos, not that there is more thatn one Pack/Troop pair in attendance.

 

But what I think the rules are trying to avoid is for a Webelos den to tag along with a troop to a regular Boy Scout camporee where no plans have been made to accommodate the Webelos. Eagle Foot's event sound more like that than it does your situation.

 

With Cub Scoutings emphasis on camping these days, after the boys have family-camped for two or three years as Cub Scouts, there is a huge temptation to push the Webelos into more Boy Scout-style camping. In my own pack, the den leader of the other Webelos den (who is also an ASM in the troop) really wants to make sure the Webelos can hang with the Scouts on campouts after they cross over. Essentially, he wants the Webelos to join the troop with the camping skills of a First Class Scout. While that's a nice idea, it's not part of the Webelos program and it robs the boys of the primary learning experience as first-year Scouts. While he looks at the new Scouts and says they aren't ready to go camping, I tend to think the troop is taking too much of a sink-or-swim approach to teaching camping skills. If a troop is using the new Scout patrol system, there should a safety net for the new boys as they ramp up on their camping skills.

[Laurie]

Our district camporee is for Boy Scouts only. However, the second year Webelos are invited to attend the day-time activities.

 

Our troop held a camping trip just for the second year Webelos. It was cabin camping (we later learned that this troop is usually tent camping) and a parent was required to come with the Webelo. For our Webelos, this is often their first camping experience, so what you describe sounds like fun but a much for these guys.

 

Now that we know our Webelos are often unprepared for camping, we are working on having more Webelos camping trips with the pack beginning this year. The goal is to help the boys be prepared for the more challenging camping trips our troop regularly has.

 

[Twocubdad]

In my infrequently humble opinion, the preparation Webelos need to do for Boy Scout camping has less to do with traditional camping skills, rather it is largely between their ears. That's where Webelos Resident Camp comes in.

 

I don't know how WRC's are run elsewhere, but ours is somewhat of a hybrid between a week at Boy Scout camp and Cub day camp. The programming is run much the same as a day camp and the boys are kept hoppin' from 7 in the morning until after 10 at night -- no time to get homesick. In terms of living with your patrol, being on an extended campout, not having your parent with you (that's the big one), lt looks, feels and smells much more like Boy Scout camp. Just within my den, I can see a big difference in how my Webelos view moving into Boy Scouting. Those who went to WRC last year seem to be looking forward to Scouting much more than those who did not attend. They've learned that Scout camp is a lot of fun and that they can be in the woods for an extended time without mom or dad.

 

WRC has been identified as a big factor in avoiding the high drop out rate between Webelos and the first year of Boy Scouts. Anyone with Webelos should really encourage their boys to go to resident camp.

 

 

[Laurie]

Thanks Twocubdad. That's a good idea. Our boys going into first year Webelos already love camping. In fact, when one just celebrated his birthday, he did so with a campout (tent, fire, cooking over the fire) in his backyard. I suspect we'll be doing that soon, and one of the other's boys is planning on it too I'll look into our resident camp for next year.

[fboisseau]

Twocubdad,

I wish our council still did the WRC the way they do in your council. Unfortantly our council built this really nice Cub Camp next to the Boy Scout camp and now the WRC program has been trashed. With the old program a Webelos could get his Outdoorsman, Aquanaut, and Readyman during the 3-day period and still have plenty of time for fun, if the leader was smart. Now with the new program, under the control of people who think of all Cubs as Tigers, a Webelos only can get Readyman if the leader insists that First Aid instruct works on the requirements. I will admit that the air-conditioned mess hall is nice (but I also will state we had more problems with heat exhaustion) along with the flush toliets and private showers. Just give me a program for Webelos that prepare them for SRC and does not treat them like Tigers/Wolves.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Laurie,

 

Our council still does WRC and I attended with my son just a few weeks ago. They have a GREAT program!!! If you want to get an idea of a good program, check out this site: http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/camps/CGT/CGT2003.htm It contains all of the information about the camp including camp rules and what activity pins are available for the boys to achieve.

 

PS They also do a Cub Resident Camp seperate from WRC.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

[jbroganjr]

Actually, starting now, Webelos are not to camp with a troop at CAMPOREES, rather they are only invited to visit for the day.

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html click on the html or the pdf version and you will see it clearly stated.

I was told at Philmont that the reason for this was to spur councils to develop a cub scout camping program, that there where too many instances of relying on camporees for the cub scouting program.

Webelos are encouraged to go camping with a troop still, just not at a camporee. I am sure this just will stir up the issue, but I am only forwarding on the web site (official BSA) and the reasonings given at PTC

[molscouter]

Actually, it says these are guidelines. The exact quote is

 

"Because of the varying development rates among youth, these activity guidelines are flexible and should not be perceived as requirements or rules. They address the mainstream of youth abilities while allowing for exceptions for Scouting units and groups based on the consideration and judgment of unit, district, and council committees and boards."

[Eagledad]

>>I wish our council still did the WRC the way they do in your council. Unfortantly our council built this really nice Cub Camp next to the Boy Scout camp and now the WRC program has been trashed.

[acco40]

In our council, we usually have a fall, winter and spring camp-o-ree. The Webelos usually camp in the fall (day only too) but have day only in the winter and spring. When competing, the Webelos only compete against other Webelos dens, not Boy Scout patrols. They also do not merge with a patrol.

 

Is the above always practiced to the letter? No.

[LauraT7]

our area used to depend on Weblos participation with a Scout troop at district Klondike every year for the Webelos Arrow of Light requirement of "one activity with a BSA troop" - this was sanctioned by or district and council with their full knowledge - but just because they DID allow it - doesn't make it right. It has been against BSA national policy for years - if not always.

 

of course - the council put a stop to it the year my son was in 5th grade - which left us scrambling for an 'activity' for our den to participate in before March crossover that year- as not a single troop in the area had ever had to actually PLAN something themselves to include webelos before!

 

We have planned recruiting activities in the years since - including campouts - but we have made them specific to Webelos level and every Webelo must be accompanied by a parent. We have found that pre-planned things work best for webelos for overnights - cabin camping, museum overnights, lock-ins, things like that. One recent huge success was an overnight program in a museum WWII submarine.

 

I took my Webelos den camping - with their parents, and individually with me and my son - just as friends - not as a scouting event. Cub scouting and Webelos, IMHO, is deplorably lacking in teaching camping skills. In Girl Scouting, the way I was taught camping skills - I knew more in 3rd or 4th grade than most of the 8th grade Boy Scouts i know now! Webelos come into Boy Scouting totally unprepared - unless they happen to come from a camping family, and one who allows their children to learn to do things for themselves!

 

i believe, and hope, that some of the changes coming across from BSA will include a better 'bridge' between the cub scout and the boy scout programs and the skills they teach. I think we lose alot of first year boys because of the 'culture shock' difference in the way the two programs are run.