"Scout's Honor"

[Twocubdad]

Thirty years at my YMCA if you were caught skinny-dipping you would have been thrown out of the Y and likely arrested.

[dsteele]

If we can leave the topic of naked boys and get back to the original post . . .

 

I thought the book was good and more fair to the BSA than I was expecting. I think his views of Scouting are a bit judgemental in that he seems to think Scouting is a right and not a membership. I did enjoy the stories of his son's campouts and his involvement in the troop. His view of the micro was definately, in my opinion, much better than his view of the macro.

 

DS

[Marty_Doyle]

TwoCubDad is correct - Jeal was discussing B-P's decades long "friendship" with Kenneth "the boy" McLaren. Since Jeal feels there was no physical relationship (hence "repressed"), and B-P never "self-avowed" anything, I guess he's OK.

If one loosk at Beard's political views and Seton's religious views, I think it is fair to call them at least somewhat eccentric. But I do not think Applebome proved they would necessarily have been any more inclusive than the current BSA.

I really liked the book, and thought it gave voice to a large (depending where you are in the country - I'm just down the road from Chappaqua) segment of the people involved with Scouting. (iIam shocked, shocked - think "Casablanca" here - that Bob White liked it, given Applebome's conclusions and recommended solutions.

Sorry Man-o-Steel (or Cyber-Exec?), I don't remember him saying Scouting was a right. But he was a pretty good cheerleader for Scouting, especially for a presumed New York liberal (we are the worst kind) who lives down the block from the Clintons - or at least Bill.

I also agree that at anytime in my life, some adult watching any boy skinny-dipping should and would have been arrested.

The other irony is that his book has the same title as a "documentary" (used loosely) that presents a completely opposite point of view about the BSA...

[Fat Old Guy]

"Thirty years at my YMCA if you were caught skinny-dipping you would have been thrown out of the Y and likely arrested."

 

Sounds like an uptight place.

[Rooster7]

Heres why I dont like Peter Applebomes words (as quoted by acco40):

 

I think most of Scoutings values are wonderful,

 

OR, as its probably interpreted by the more liberal segment of society "Not every BSA value is worth embracing. We need to work to change the BSA." Of course, this mantra will be sung forever and a day by folks on the fringes. If we give in to them, the BSA will slowly become unrecognizable as the organization that we love today.

 

and the fact that Scouting can be a little square and behind the times is part of its charm.

 

Behind the times for whom and why does that make the BSA charming? I think the BSA is standing firm on traditional values. I dont see their stance as behind the times or charming. I see their leadership in this area as inspiring and courageous. This quote belittles the fight that we are facing as an organization and as a society. Of course, if its detractors can convince the majority that the fight is not worth fighting (i.e., "it's a charming cause, but not worth seriously defending"), they will gain much ground to the BSAs detriment.

 

 

Scouting really is built upon wonderful values of fairness, inclusion, honesty and decency.

 

This is a subtle way of saying "And if they want to remain true to their values, they should include homosexuals and atheists." Sorry, Im not buying it.

 

You cant teach a kid anything more valuable than the Scout Law.

 

I love the Scout Law, but it's not the End all - Be all to morality. Applebome and others want to convince the BSA and its members that the Scout Law is a religion on to itself. They want to create wiggle room for all of their causes. Dont think they dont have ulterior motives when they make quotes such as this one. The Scout Law is great. However, the Scout Law is a guideline, which assumes that one already has a common moral basis from which to interpret these laws. This should be obvious. Otherwise, the Scout Law becomes relative and meaningless.

 

A lot of the privileged, sophisticated urban and suburban kids who are least likely to be Scouts are the ones who could use it the most. That said, I think the underpinnings of Scouting and the teachings of Scoutings founders are often more worthy and creative than the way they are interpreted by Scoutings leadership today. Scouting was created by three fascinating eccentrics, all of them writers, artists and iconoclasts -- the English war hero Lord Robert Baden-Powell, and the American naturalists and youth leaders Ernest Thompson Seton and Daniel Carter Beard. Their view of Scouting is more interesting and inclusive than the one being retailed by Scoutings current leadership at the national headquarters in Irving, Texas.

 

Finally, this guy comes out of the closet (figuratively Im not making any inferences regarding Applebomes sexually). Put these last four sentences at the beginning of the larger quote, and Applebomes observations about Scouting dont seem quite as sincere. Only time will tell, but I am convinced that his words do NOT represent the majority. I am convinced that the founders of the BSA would be pleased with the current leadership and their stances regarding homosexuality and atheism. I am convinced that more and more parents are tired of people portraying their values as charming and antiquated. If Im right, Scouting will remain safe for at least a couple more decades. If Im wrong, Applebome and others will have their way. If that day arrives, it will sadden me greatly. The BSA is not a religion, but they are fighting the good fight for morality. I pray that the current leadership endures and triumphs over this latest assault by those who want to change the BSA into their personal political sanctuary no matter the cause.

 

[RuddBaron]

Regarding the bedroom situation...at that time in history it was a sign of wealth and position to have a bedroom for the master and a bedroom for the lady. Mansions in Newport are a good example of this, as are many southern plantation homes and castles in Europe. It had nothing to do with the status of their relationship.

[acco40]

Rooster, I'm curious, do you view morals more as beliefs or as actions? I'll take actions over beliefs any day.

 

That is my primary beef with most organized religions that I know. Fatih and belief are emphasized more than actions, especially in Christian religions. It reminds me of the following joke: A priest and an atheist go out fishing on the lake in a row boat. The atheist gets a bite and the fish is so big, the jerk on the line pulls him overboard. The atheist screams, "help, save me, I can't swim!" The priest asks if he believes in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. The atheist just yells, "save me" and goes under only to bob back up again screaming "save me!" The priest again asks him the same question. The atheist, somewhat bewildered answers, "maybe" and goes under again. Finally, he resurfaces again and thrashes toward the boat with a plea to be saved. The priest asks again, "Do you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?" The atheist answers, "Yes." The priest then rows away exclaiming, "You're saved!"(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Fat Old Guy]

Morals are beliefs supported by actions. Not visiting brothels doesn't make a man moral if the reason that he doesn't go is because he's broke.

 

I was always taught that good deeds alone weren't enough to get you into heaven and neither was faith. Good deeds, faith, and repentence are all required.

 

[Rooster7]

Deeds or Works are a natural extension of true faith. The two are a marriage. However, works is not faith. If given the choice between the two, I'd rather have true faith. You cannot earn your way into God's heart.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[dsteele]

I thought this was a book review, not a re-opening of the debate of Justification by Faith or Justification by works.

 

All in all, I think it was a pretty good book. I thank Rooster for so elequently pointing out exactly what I meant when I said I didn't like some of Mr. Applebome's views.

 

DS