Goodbye, Owasippe

[LongHaul]

I wish this court case was about saving the camp but it is not.

>>Chicago Council is selling the property and this entire trial is centered on the value of the property and a zoning issue. Nothing more. <<

The fight to preserve the "camp" found little support from the locals when it was determined that associating the Blue Lake Township issues with the governance issues concerning the sale of the camp under any circumstances could jeopardize the "zoning issue" case. The signs are still up "Save Owasippe" but if you read this entire thread you'll see that "Owasippe" no longer means what it used to mean.  As has been stated this is about property value and zoning, the loss of our camp(s) is secondary if that.  As long as there are no homes built Blue Lake Township and it's supporters will be happy, the scouts of CAC will be without a camp but hey priorities are priorities.

LH

[Jschlich]

LH says:

 

"I wish this court case was about saving the camp but it is not."

 

***************

Some Chicago Area Council members attempted to go the course of "saving the camp". They failed to do so from within the Council.

 

The local community, as well as some from the Chicago Area Council, worked together to preserve the Owasippe property intact with the goal of having the property available for controlled use by Scouts, other youth and the public.

 

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LH further states:

 

"The fight to preserve the "camp" found little support from the locals when it was determined that associating the Blue Lake Township issues with the governance issues concerning the sale of the camp under any circumstances could jeopardize the "zoning issue" case."

 

***********

The fight to preserve the "camp" was lost by the members of the Chicago Area Council within the Council. Goverance issues of the Chicago Area Council were totally in the hands of the members of the Council.

 

Few residents of Blue Lake Township are members of the Chicago Council. The residents of the township have no standing in the issues of the Chicago Area Council, a private organization. Blue Lake Township had no dog in the fight over governance of the Chicago Council.

 

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LH says, "The signs are still up "Save Owasippe" but if you read this entire thread you'll see that "Owasippe" no longer means what it used to mean."

******

 

Ummmmm. It used to mean to save the Boy Scout owned property from sale for residential development. The folks who organized the "Save Owasippe" campaign NEVER have changed that meaning.

 

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LH further states: "As has been stated this is about property value and zoning, the loss of our camp(s) is secondary if that."

 

*********

Very true. However, one side wants to build houses and the other side would like to have Scout camping and other outdoor activities on the property. It is the members of the Chicago Council who want the houses built.

 

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LH writes: "As long as there are no homes built Blue Lake Township and it's supporters will be happy, the scouts of CAC will be without a camp but hey priorities are priorities."

 

**************

 

Blue Lake Township is on record as welcoming and supporting the presence of the Chicago Council camp in the township as well as the other four cvamps in the township. Who is it that wants to build the homes and not have a camp?

 

[LongHaul]

>>It is the members of the Chicago Council who want the houses built.<< Some people just can't see past their own noses Joe. You post in a Scouting forum and for many years were one of us but on this issue you just can't see past your nose. IF those "save OWASIPPE" signs were actually intended to mean SAVE BLUE LAKE TOWNSHIP the I say those involved are as much a bunch of hypocrites as are the Executive Board that started all this. IF those originators of the save OWASIPPE campaign sought to use the name and emotional power associated with it to champion their fight then I hope Stone wins and builds as many one room shacks as he can. If after all the years and all the many scouters that have passed thru Blue Lake Township OWASIPPE means only "property that THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL NOT THE MEMBERS OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL want to built houses on then again I hope Stone wins. I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need. I objected to the repeated denials for reduction over the years and was happy when they gave us a partial change. I was actually happy when BLT rezoned this time as I wanted the Camp to remain but if it's just a GOVERNANCE ISSUE over what an owner can do with their property then I think I'll start telling all the CAC members to stop sending money to the BLT defense fund and the OOEC fund and spend it on the boys instead. Blue Lake Township deserves as much support from US in their fight as as they show us in ours.

LH

[Gold Winger]

" I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need."

 

In illinois they can tax the property of charitable organziations? Wow! Is nothing sacred?

[Jschlich]

LH -

 

First of all I don't know who you address as Joe.

 

Then, I want to repeat something from two years ago, "I believe that the Owasippe Outdoor Education Center was created as an effort to find a single solution that satisfies all interested parties. Fundimental to the OOEC effort is that the property remain zoned FR-I, not rezoned to allow residential development.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see the Council recind the sale and go forth with a long-range redevelopment plan for the Owasippe property. It is something that could have been done decades ago."

 

Nothing I have said has changed over the past two years, the OOEC still has the same mission and goals. That can be checked out on the OOEC web site www.ooec.org.

 

I suggest that it is you who has changed position and opinion. More power to you, such is anyone's right.

 

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Also you write: "If after all the years and all the many scouters that have passed thru Blue Lake Township OWASIPPE means only "property that THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL NOT THE MEMBERS OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL want to built houses on then again I hope Stone wins."

 

The members of the Chicago Area Council have allowed their Council to sell all of the Council's camping properties. So, your desire has been met.

 

There happens to be many Scouters and people from across West Michigan and beyond who feel the preservation of the Owasippe property so that Scout camping can continue there is of great importance. It happens also to be part of that feeling that additional uses of the property (other than for residential development)are necessary for the property to be viable in the long term.

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The current court action has nothing to do with the OOEC. It has everything to do with the Chicago Council attempting to have the zoning of the property changed. The Council is the plaintiff and the township is the defendent.

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The State of Michigan allows not-for-profits to hold 400 acres of land tax free. This is almost double the size of the typical youth camp across the country. Beyond the 400 acres the property is taxed no matter what not-for-profit owns it.

 

The specific case of Owasippe is that there are almost 4,800 acres owned and the 4,400 acres is taxed as camp "support land". The actual tax paid is about $14.00 an acre as "support land".

 

I think that is a rather kind treatment for about 7.5 square miles of property featuring about 9.5 miles of waterfront.

 

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You write: "I was actually happy when BLT rezoned this time as I wanted the Camp to remain but if it's just a GOVERNANCE ISSUE over what an owner can do with their property then I think I'll start telling all the CAC members to stop sending money to the BLT defense fund and the OOEC fund and spend it on the boys instead. Blue Lake Township deserves as much support from US in their fight as as they show us in ours."

 

The fact is that CAC members have already sanctioned the spending of about $1,000,000.00 to contest the zoning of the Owasippe property and the meter is still running.

 

Before the local Circuit Court has even issued a final ruling in the case (final arguments aren't even due until next week)the current CAC Board has filed an appeal with the Michigan Appeals Court. Ka-ching, more of that property sale and FOS money to fight for the right to build house on Owasippe.

 

So LH, your wish is being fulfilled.

 

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I find it sad that so much money is being spent on a legal contest when it could be better spent on a Scouting program. But it is the fiduciary responsibility of the CAC to use it's resources wisely to advance their mission.

 

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gold Wing, I realize you are relatively new to planet Earth. Owasippe is in the state of Michigan. Thats the one that sorta looks like a mitten in the middle of the Great lakes, well Lake Michigan on the west side and Lake Huron on the east with a touch of Lake Erie as well

[Gold Winger]

Okay, I'll rephrase my question "They tax charitable organizations' property in Michigan?" which seems to be answered above. I never knew that there was limit on the property exemption. When I sat of the board of my church we only had about an acre.

 

Let me see if I have the jist of the story straight. Chicago Area Council (in Illinois) owns a big chunk of land in Michigan. Showing the wisdom that councils show everywhere, they want to sell this chunk of land to fill their coffers. To maximize their profits they want to sell to developers who will build overpriced, mass produced homes with enhancements like crown molding, two story foyers and lights on either side of the front door. A group of people have banded together to try to save this camp from becoming yet another place for people to park their BMWs and SUVs. CAC and the potential saviours are battling it out as we speak.

 

Since the Council seems intent on selling this chunk of land, I think that we should all support the group that wants to save it. Sure, it might no longer be a "Scout Camp" but it will remain a camp that will be used by youth which would include church groups, YMCA, Campfire, 4H and FFA (chug-a-lug).

 

(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[eolesen]

The State of Michigan allows not-for-profits to hold 400 acres of land tax free

 

That's a fair amount of land. Texas's limitations are 1,000 acres for an organization in any one county, and there is only one scout camp I can think of that exceeds that (Sid Richardson or SR2, which is 2500 acres).

 

To keep all of Owasippe tax exempt, the land could be subdivided into 400 acre parcels, with individual councils and other not-for-profits owning them.

 

If CAC is unable to sell it as residential property, I don't know if they'll still go forward with selling it. If they do, someone should be lobbying the state to just buy it as a wildlife refuge...(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[LongHaul]

I do apologize Jim, if your going to dis a man you should get his name right. As for the OOEC is was presented to the public as being organized to save the camp not just the land.  If the OOEC feels that calling what ever they were to set up "Owasippe" would make up for the loss of the camp then I guess I'm just a romantic because I don't

 Late 70's early 80's Blue Lake Township rezoned the property from what ever it was to a higher rate. Chicago Area Council requested for years to have the zoning changed BLT refused. 1990 (?)BLT agreed to rezone to reduce the tax on the camp. When CAC announced it was going to sell to a developer BLT again rezoned the land to prohibit building homes. When viewed from strictly a property owners stand point seems like BLT was happy to tax the land at a higher rate until the property owner wanted to utilize that land as it was zoned. Puts a different spin on the Blue Lake Township case.

 LH

[Jschlich]

Gold Winger writes:

 

"A group of people have banded together to try to save this camp from becoming yet another place for people to park their BMWs and SUVs. CAC and the potential saviours are battling it out as we speak."

 

This is not totally correct. The so called "potential saviours" and the CAC are NOT battling. It is correct to say that a group of people have banded together to prevent what is describe AND to make it possible for a Scout summer camp to operate under the Owasippe banner as it has for almost 100 years.

 

The so called battle is between the township and the CAC. They are the parties in court over a zoning issue.

 

The people who want to see the property evolve into a long term viable Scout summer camp/green space/conference center/enviornment research center/FFA/ 4-H/Campfire/church group facility have been attempting to discourage the continuation of the legal actions.

 

There already is a YMCA camp, Music Camp, a "special needs" camp as well as another Council's BSA camp all adjacent to the Owasippe property. One of the opportunities seen by the people is to create the same type of synergy in the area that a "restaurant row", "shopping mall", "resort region", Orlando or Las Vegas benefit from.

 

It is very difficult for the "summer camp" tradition of many youth organizations to continue because of various economic realities. Owasippe happens to be located in an area that believes there are great logic in establishing a welcoming enviornment for summer camp/outdoor education facilities. There is strong evidence that this is a "growth industry" which seems to be the opposite view of the BSA.

 

The people also have encouraged that a dialogue be established between the CAC, Township, OOEC and financial sources to accomplish the envisioned evolution.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify the situation as well as your endorsement of the overall concept.

 

 

[Jschlich]

eolesen writes:

 

"To keep all of Owasippe tax exempt, the land could be subdivided into 400 acre parcels, with individual councils and other not-for-profits owning them.

 

If CAC is unable to sell it as residential property, I don't know if they'll still go forward with selling it. If they do, someone should be lobbying the state to just buy it as a wildlife refuge..."

 

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There are many alternatives to the sale of the property by the CAC for residential development. However, the Chicago Scouts have decided to invest what I believe is close to $1-million of their money to insist that they have the right to have residential development on the land they own.

 

Take a look at www.ooec.org to see the alternative to residential development that seems to have garnered support from many people.

[Jschlich]

LH writes:

 

"I do apologize Jim, if your going to dis a man you should get his name right."

*********

Yes, it is rather important to get names correct.

 

I guess how important it is for you to dis someone is a judgement call that only you can make. Take the best shots you can man. I can take it.

*********

 

LH further writes:

 

"Late 70's early 80's Blue Lake Township rezoned the property from what ever it was to a higher rate. Chicago Area Council requested for years to have the zoning changed BLT refused."

 

and also wrote:

 

"I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need."

***********

 

This is an interesting spin that you choose to put on these events. I feel it's important to put forth more complete information.

 

It would appear that you have mixed property assesment and zoning in a convenient but inaccurate manner. It sounds good for your simple statement but is inaccurate in fact.

 

In the late '70's and early '80's there was an increase of the property tax assesment on the Owasippe property. There was not a zoning change as you claim.

 

The increase of assesment was because of the recently established value of same zoned property.... property directly adjacent to the CAC owned property. Same zoning = same tax assesment. This is a common and legal method for assesors to determine the value of property.

 

What you have refused to include in your statements is that the values used to make the tax assesments were created by the CAC sale of the like zoned property. In essence, the CAC sold property for X,XXX.00 dollar value but did not want to pay the taxes when their remaining same zoned property was appraised at the sale price they had received.

 

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LH goes on:

 

"I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need."

 

What the hack are "resort rates'? Is this your opinion or fact? The fact is that the tax assesments were based on the values of the CAC property established by the completed sale of same zoned CAC property. NONE of that property was zoned nor taxed at whatever you choose to call "resort rates".

 

Your further comments are based on false or fabricated evidence.

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

eoleson writes: If they do, someone should be lobbying the state to just buy it as a wildlife refuge...

 

Well living as I do in MI and watching the dismal and beyond-dismal state of our budget in recent years (including this one), in which practically everything that anybody could want a state gov't to do has been axed to the bone in the name of austerity, I sure hope no one is expecting the state gov't of MI to buy the land as a wildlife refuge. Not that I'd oppose it, personally, but man, we can't afford to buy paper for our schools. No way is the state legislature (dysfunctional lot, those folks) going to fork out money for a wildlife refuge. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to celebrate, mind you.

 

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

I can only figure that your are referring to the sale of Owasippe Lake which to my knowledge occurred after the change in tax assessment, and some say as a result of the reassessment. Land adjacent to CAC's as I understand it was NOT reassessed at the higher rate at that time. That is to say all the property in that area of that zoning type was not reassessed at that time.

 >>The people who want to see the property evolve into a long term viable Scout summer camp/green space/conference center/environment research center/FFA/ 4-H/Campfire/church group facility have been attempting to discourage the continuation of the legal actions.<<

 That says it all. This is not a plan to save "Owasippe" it is a plan to prevent houses being built. Opening the 4800 acres to the public seems like a funny way to "preserve the flora and fauna" and continue the near 100 year camp traditions.

 LH

[Jschlich]

Lisabob writes:

 

"If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to celebrate, mind you."

 

Celebration may be possible but it certainly is too early to buy any champagne concerning the Owasippe property.

 

Some time ago the good people of the State of Michigan were wise enough to establish, through a vote of the people, the Michigan Natural Recources Trust Fund. This is a fund that collects the royalties paid for the extraction of oil, gas and such resources in Michigan.

 

MNRTF funds can only be used for the purchase of property and for improvements to property with natural resource value in Michigan.

 

It is possible that MNRTF funds may be available to finance a portion of the effort to preserve the Owasippe property. I'm not saying that this is a fact, only that it has been brought up as a possible part of an overall plan.

 

So while there is a budget problem with the State of Michigan the people of this State were forward thinking about what to do with money earned from the extraction of non-renewal resources. That fund just awarded $33-million for 2007. A rather nice amount of money going into areas all across the State.