Single age vs mixed age patrols

[yarrow]

We use single age patrols. A hold over from Eaglebound I am afraid. Anyway. I don't like them. I like to see the older boys work at leadership and be a role model in a patrol and the younger ones working toward that position. In single age patrols the younger patrols flounder and the older ones sometimes disolve do to lack of attendance. I think if the older kids were in leadership roles and responsible for their patrol they would step up and come and the younger boys would have a better experience in a patrol. Plus the PLC would be naturally full of more experienced boys, planning. Sometimes in single age groups quiet boys don't get elected to lead, but in a mixed age patrol they would more likely be placed in that growth position of leadership. Anyway our boy lead planning group said they wanted to try mixed age patrols but the SM is against it.

[Mike F]

yarrow,

I agree. Got on a rant that eventually stumbled around this topic a while back -- won't repeat, but you read about it here:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=18739#id_18739

 

We're going back to mixed age patrols in the Fall. It's been an uphill struggle with lots of switchbacks, but I think we're almost there. Key to winning folks over was checking out other troops in area that are using mixed age and having some good discussions about the details of how things are working.

 

Good luck!

[Bob White]

The BSA program does not support either totally mixed age or single aged patrols. The current program is built around groups of ages.

 

The reasons for this are explained in the resourses of the program and when applied correctly do exactly what they are expected to do.

 

In my son's troop as an example, in a community of around 80,000 with 24 troops in town, my son's is one of the three most popular. They have 39 scouts, 12 who started a year ago February and are still active (0% drop off)and all completed First Class within 15 months (most in 12) of joining. Six Scouts aged out at 18 this year, and 6 more will age out next year. 3 attended JLT, 29 are going to summer camp and 16 are going to high adventure after that. The only time the Scoutmaster (and its not me) talks to the troop at troop meetings is for the SM minute and recognitions). They use the New Scout Patrol, Regular Patrol and Venture Patrol, troop organization.

 

So what makes it work so well? It's the program. The SM is good but only because he uses the program, The kids are good but most kids are and the program makes them better. Parent support ebbs and flows as in any unit.

 

It's the scouting program. It works, but only when you use it all. You cannot change the recipe and get the same meal. I see so many troops go back and forth trying different things to solve their problems. Their problem is they don't follow the program. They follow bits and pieces and then expect total results.

 

You can get total results but only from the total program.

 

I wish your scouts the best of luck with whatever program you decide to use.

 

Bob White

[dan]

How would you use, single age patrols or mixed aged patrols?

It is my understanding that the patrol decides who can join the patrol. As the patrol gets older, the patrol may decide to ask a boy from another patrol to join or the boy may ask to join, because the patrol is more suited to him. This could be an older or younger scout.

I see it as starting out pretty much as a single age patrol, new scouts, but then over time the patrol should grow or shrink as they want to.

How in the world would the PLC decide to put who in what patrol? Straws, friends? enemys?

When new scouts come in my sons troop, the patrols are picked by the SM and SPL, mostly this is by which pack they came from, they try to keep the scouts together that know each other, sometimes 2 dens from different packs will become one patrol, but they are allowed to move to another patrol, if the other patrol wants them.

So, Bob White, I need to ask is this following the program? Or are we missing something?

 

[eagle90]

I would also vote for mixed age patrols. This year we tried the new scout patrol idea with not favorable results. The new scouts did not seem to mesh into the troop activities and spirit as well as in years when we just assimilated them into existing patrols with experienced leadership. My recommendation next year is to go back to mixed age patrols.

 

[Eagledad]

>>It's the scouting program. It works, but only when you use it all. You cannot change the recipe and get the same meal. I see so many troops go back and forth trying different things to solve their problems. Their problem is they don't follow the program.

[NWScouter]

The new scout patrol came with he changes when the Scout handbook of 1989, so it is a fairly new aspect of scouting. The idea was that patrol would last only one year before the now older scout would join an established patrol. The reasons as explained back then was it would easier for the new scout to advance if every one in the patrol was working on the same things and one of the big concerns that there was harassment of the younger scouts if they where split up. Two of the reasons that national found why scouts quit in the first year was the lack of advancement and bullying.

My personal opinion then and now is that both are taken care of by good program and aware adult and scout leadership. A no tolerance policy of bullying and "grab ass" behavior.

The new scout patrol also had as example the LDS practice of having their eleven year olds in almost a separate unit. Where they very rarely to do things with the 12 and 13 year old in their troops. They also allow this group only to have three overnights and no summer camp.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

I'm not a fan of the New Scout Patrol. I've seen far too many that were run like Third Year Webelos Dens with the ASM for New Scouts and a couple of Dads running the show. The troop guides are often shut out of the process so you have a bunch of adults ramming everything down the throats of the boys. All of the activities seem to be geared toward specific requirements instead of the Scouts finding advancement opportunities in activities.

 

Then we have the idea of leadership, the patrol elects a Patrol Leader but what does a 10.5 year old know about leadership or even the patrol method so, again the adults do the work.

 

The new Scouts may advance quickly but Scouting is no more about advancement than karate is about belts.

 

My troop reorganized its patrols a couple years ago in an effort to change to mixed-aged patrols. After all the crying was done there was only on mixed-age patrol. Know what? That patrol runs as smooth as silk.

 

Scouting isn't supposed to be about hanging with your buds. Scouting is about teaching and learning. A group of 13 year olds spend most of their time squabbling about who is in charge, elections be damned. A mixed age group finds the natural leaders.

 

This idea of age segregation is farily new to our society. Way back when, kids of all ages played together. If you wanted to play a game of football, all the kids in the neighborhood played from age 7 to age 17. One of the great things about ages mixing was that the younger kids learned how to moderate their behavior around the older kids so they'd fit in. Now kids only deal with their own age group and too many seem to be at a loss when they have to deal with older kids or adults.

 

 

[Bob White]

Eagledad,

As far as I can find, aged based patrols were basically introduced by National in the early 90s.

 

There are no age based patrols, They are experienced based.

 

National was reacting to low Eagle numbers in the mid 80s and decided to make changes to better the program

 

I have no idea where you got his from. In 1980 the percentage of Eagle Scouts was at a high for that time in scouting and has grown steadily since 1910 from one out of a hundres to the current 5 out of onehundred. Im the 1980s the BSA celebrated its 1,000,000th Eagle Scout.

 

OK fine, they propose it and hand it to us, why should we assume that will work when mixed age patrols where the norm and successful for over 75 years.

 

This isn't something people make up in their sleep and write a memo on. Kids change. Many boys were not staying in scouts past the first year. The BSA surveyed them to find out why, talked with scout leaders who were seeing higher retention rates, identified what was making the difference, developed a program, tested it, and introduced it in 1989.

 

but even they say it requires a lot more interaction from the adults.

 

Yes, for the first few months the NEw Scout Patrol Takes a lot of adult interaction. Remember you are bringing these boys in from 4 years of adult leadership. You cannot just thrust them into a youth lead program and expect them to immediately adjust. New Scout Patrol is in some ways a decompression chamber where a boy adjusts over several months to the troop method while he learns the basic outdoor skills of scouting.

 

My point is just because it's in the text, does not mean it should work?

 

But Since you have the responsibility to deliver the BSA scouting program shouldn't you make an attempt to know, understand, and use the program you were given to deliver?

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

Dan, Patrol organiozation is desuigned to work like this.

 

Upon joining scouts a boy is placed in a new scout patrol. This can be done based on a number of factors, but by Webelos Den is most common.

 

Upon reaching First Class a Scout can chose to join a regular patrol or stay with the NSP as it converts to a regular patrol. But it needs to be the boy's choice. Who picked your friends for you when you were 11?

 

Regular patrols are often developed around scouts with similar interests, or from the same school or neighborhood or other common ground.

 

Venture patrol is for scouts 13 or older, who show the skill and maturity for more independent and higher adventure activities.

 

I hope this answers your question.

 

NWScouter,

I agree that some of the reason for the New Scout Patrol was to create safeguards in behaviour that were ignored or allowed under too many Scoutmasters. And it works.

 

BW

 

 

[Bob White]

Fat Old Guy,

I'm not a fan of the New Scout Patrol. I've seen far too many that were run like Third Year Webelos Dens with the ASM for New Scouts and a couple of Dads running the show. The troop guides are often shut out of the process so you have a bunch of adults ramming everything down the throats of the boys. All of the activities seem to be geared toward specific requirements instead of the Scouts finding advancement opportunities in activities.

 

Who hasn't seen scouting done badly at more than one unit? That is not a reason to ignore the program, that is a reason to work to do it right.

 

but what does a 10.5 year old know about leadership or even the patrol method

 

Nothing. That is why they are a ptrol leader for 30 to 60days. So that they can attend a PLC and learn what "boy lead" means and how a troop operates.

 

so, again the adults do the work.

 

NO. That's why each NSP has a Troop Guide. To guide the inexperience PL throough his short tenure to understand the role and responsibilities of the PL. The guide also begins his leadership training to teach him how to get scouts to participate without bossing them around.

 

The new Scouts may advance quickly but Scouting is no more about advancement than karate is about belts.

 

So who said it was?

 

Scouting isn't supposed to be about hanging with your buds.

 

I'm sorry you must be talking about a different scouting program than Boy Scouts.

 

Only the New Scout Patrol is age segregated. Regular patrols can be but seldom are a blend of 11 1/2 to 18-years-old, and Venture patrols are 13 to 18-years old. Where is this segregation you are talking about? The program is simply giving special attention to new scouts to make them more comfortable, allow them some time to mature and socialize, and to learn the basics of troop operation and scout skills. That's all it is. It has proven itself over the last 14 years (in troops that use it) to increase retention and grow the troop while alowing multiple program s to exist in a unit based in the maturity and ability of each patrol.

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy]

"The new Scouts may advance quickly but Scouting is no more about advancement than karate is about belts.

 

So who said it was? "

 

You and all the others who crow about First Class/First Year and boys who drop out because they don't advance quickly. If they cared about learning vs. advancement they'd stay in.

 

We have about six boys in my troop that have all the requirements for tenderfoot, second class and first class checked off except for Scoutmaster conferences and Boards of Review. They all have a bunch of merit badges, come to every meeting and go on every campout. Are they missing out on something? Not in my mind. They are having fun. Are they good Scouts? Yes they are.

 

On the other hand, we have a Scout whose parents are pushing him. He made life at the earliest possible date and presented his Eagle project to the troop committee the next week. He looks like a good Scout, his uniform is always pressed but he's really gotten nothing out of the program.

 

Who would I rather have in my troop?

 

"Scouting isn't supposed to be about hanging with your buds.

 

I'm sorry you must be talking about a different scouting program than Boy Scouts."

 

If you want to hang with your buds, go to the corner and hang out. Part of the Scouting experience is learning to deal with different people and even learning to work with people that aren't your friends. Maybe you'll become friends, maybe you won't.

 

I have the feeling that if BSA abolished the New Scout Patrol tomorrow, Bob would say that was the right thing to do and had been too long in coming.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Hey you forum guys, help me out here, who was it that said scouting was supposed to be:

 

"fun with a purpose"

 

I dont remember anybody saying scouting was all about teaching and learning, least nobody who has been published...

 

 

[Bob White]

"We have about six boys in my troop that have all the requirements for tenderfoot, second class and first class checked off except for Scoutmaster conferences and Boards of Review."

 

Let me get this straight FOG, You have kept 6 scouts who have completed everything for 18 ramk advxncements waiting because some aqdults haven't found the time to do the only parts of the advancement they are responsible for, and your bragging about this?

 

What are these boyse missing? Their recognition for the work they've done!

 

Bob White

[Bob White]

Actually OGE, it was "a game with a purpose." and it was B-P.

BW