Something Commandopro Said

[OldGreyEagle]

on another thread Commandopro said:

 

"... We in the BSA are facing a crisis of epic proportions. It is not widely talked about outside of professional circles, but there is a huge storm cloud on the horizon."

 

We have offered many opinions on how to improve the Programs, what I want to know is how many people think we are "facing a crisis of epic proporitons" or not and why do you feel the way you do ?

[Bob White]

Throughout scoutings history we have had periods of increases and decreases in membership. Think of it like the stock market. Overall, in the long run we do just fine. The trick is not to panic. Work your strengths and improve your weaknesses.

 

The solution to scouting is at the unit level. Leaders need to understand that there is a cumulative effect that comes from the actions of the unit program. When a pack doesn't recruit new scouts, when a troop doesn't retain their membership, the entire program is hurt. A unit program that doesn't sell popcorn, support FOS, attend council camp, get training, will weaken the entire program not just their unit.

 

As Unit level volunteers, we have a responsibility to the rest of the scouting community. We need to do it right. We need to follow the program and deliver a program that will consistently bring more youth and adults to scouting. Its up to us.

 

 

 

[Mike F]

Dittos to what Bob White said.

 

I can't influence things at the National level -- don't know where to start and don't have the time & energy to attempt to engage. But I can influence the Scouting program we deliver in my little corner with the hope, nay, belief, that the positive experiences will spread like ripples on a pond.

 

As for storm clouds on the horizon - so what? We've all seen them before. Do what you always do - secure the camp and howl back at the wind.

[frank10]

Yes. I mean no. Well yes but no...

 

Ok, I'll try to explain. Scouting serves a need. I won't bother to try to define the need or the service, we've all see it, we've all felt it. For many of us we more than just feel it, it's a part of our lives. We camp 30 nights a year, attend 40 troop meetings, monthly committee meetings, roundtables and PLC/TLC meetings. Late nights getting things ready for the next event. "Finding" a way to get a kid to camp and claiming the cash came from a "fund".

This need will not go away and those willing to serve will still be there. We will find a way to serve. We are what makes the BSA what it is. If every state park was closed to us, if every $ from united way was cut and if council sold the last of our camps we would still find back yards and open trails to keep the program going.

So for this reason I say no, there is no crisis.

 

On the other hand, when a troop's only contact with anyone above the unit level is the check we send in with our charter and to do a FOS promo I have to start to wonder if maybe there is a crisis above us. At times I found myself as a unit level scouter asking myself "Would I even notice if they closed my council ofice and layed off the staff?". Would my unit just have a new address to send our tour permits? I know that we don't pay them to run our troops. I know that volunteers must provide the labor, the drive and the spirt. But sometimes it feels like we are on our own. No quality control, no marketing, no two way comunication.

 

So maybe there is a crisis after all, but I can't help but feel that we will get past it. The units will still go on, the only question is what the national and council org charts will look like when it is over.

 

(I know there is more to it than this, but I had to try to simplify it. Please read the idea rather than find the faults.)

[purcelce]

BW wrote "A unit program that doesn't sell popcorn, support FOS, attend council camp, get training, will weaken the entire program not just their unit."

 

How can not selling popcorn and attending summer camp in council weaken the unit?

 

I can see where a unit not selling popcorn might weaken the council due to a little loss of money.

 

As for summer camp, should summer camps ban out of council troops from attending their camps? I know lots of camps that advertise for troops to come from out of council.

 

Folks, any thoughts on the above?

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

I think the important thing is that every scout attend a long-term camp SOMEWHERE. Some councils charge an extra fee for out-of-council (OOC) troops, so it seems to me they make MORE money than if we go to our own camp. In a boy-led troop, if the PLC decides that the camp program is "lame", or if they simply don't want to go back to the same camp for the fifth year in a row, the adult leaders are obligated to help them do that. Most troops in my council rotate camps among the 4 or 5 that are within a half-day's drive. Our own camp often has more OOC campers in a given week than scouts from our own council. I make a point to speak to these OOC leaders and guage their experience at our camp vs. other camps. Surprisingly, ours rates very high in comparison. Each camp has different programs to offer and, in my opinion, the Scouting experience is enhanced by trying new things and seeing new places. I think Dave's comments were just a little unfair, blaming troops who go OOC for contributing to his dilemma, but I chalked them up to the emotion of his unfortunate circumstances. But let's focus on marketing a quality and varied program to ensure every tent is filled every week. Take a lesson from the major theme parks like Busch Gardens. They introduce and market a new thrill ride every year, to keep people coming back. Otherwise, it's "been there, done that, got a T-shirt", and we don't need to go back.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[dsteele]

I was a bit emotional when I blamed (partially) units who go to out of council camps for my dilema. However, the fact is that camp fees are an integral part of a council's budget. The council spends about the same amount on camp as it charges -- when year-round expenses are taken into consideration.

 

Of course councils encourage troops from other councils to come to their council camp. They encourage it for the same reason that it's wise to drive the speed limit when in a state other than your own. From a pure dollars and sense point of view, attending an out of council camp takes money away from your council and puts it in another council's coffers.

 

However, program takes precedence and if your Scouts are getting a more well-rounded program by attending a variety of camps, more power to them. Camp is more than about money, but without money, pretty soon there is no camp.

 

The council I currently serve -- BTW -- I still serve it. My position doesn't end until 3/31 and I will continue to serve this council until that date or when I'm placed in another council.

 

Anywho -- we're currently in the process of developing a long range plan. We sent out a survey to every registered leader. One of the questions on the survey was, "Should we sell our long-term Boy Scout camp?" We're getting a bit of outrage at even asking the question, but camp attendance numbers seem to indicate the exact opposite. That's life.

 

As to the question "Are we facing a crisis of epic proportions?"

 

I don't think so. We're hitting a bump in the road, perhaps several bumps in the road, but it isn't going to kill us. We need to work a little harder in keeping good program going, retaining and recruiting members, developing our own sources of funding, recruiting, training and developing volunteer resources, etc.

 

I like what Mike F had to say -- secure the camp and howl at the wind.

 

As t-shirts said when I was a kid "Keep on Truckin'"

 

DS

[eisely]

I agree that I do not see a "crisis of epic proportions." Membership has risen and declined in the past. This is not to say that there are not things that we should be thinking about and acting upon.

 

Scouting has a great program and a great story to tell. The story is not being told effectively.

 

Scouting has trouble competing with sports at the younger age levels. We must find a way to compete more effectively.

 

Camps are expensive to operate. Many councils are struggling with their summer camp issues. Maybe it is partly poor marketing. Maybe the programs offered at summer camp just aren't as interesting to boys as they are to adults. Maybe nobody has taken the time to try to understand what is driving the costs of camp operation to see what can be done more intelligently. Maybe it is all of the above. I predict that there will be fewer summer camps operating in the future, and I also predict that this by itself will not kill scouting.

 

To me, the longer range challenge is making the program more appealing to more different ethnic groups, particularly the rapidly growing Spanish speaking population of the United States. There ought to be ways to do this without changing our values. In fact, I think the values of scouting have broad appeal, but scouting still comes across as a white suburban thing to much of this other population.

 

Having said all that, this is far from being a crisis.

[scoutldr]

ds said, "From a pure dollars and sense point of view, attending an out of council camp takes money away from your council and puts it in another council's coffers."

 

That's true, but if you have OOC troops coming to your camp to replace them, who cares? The goal should be a two warm, paying bodies in every tent, every week. And the "warm" part is optional. It shouldn't matter what CSP they wear.

 

As others say, there are 3 things that will help that..."Program, program and program."

[evmori]

So if your council summer camp is terrible or the Scouts in your unit like another summer camp instead of you council summer camp you should attend your council summer camp so your unit won't be part of the problem?

 

Ed Mori

A blessed Christmas to all!

1 Peter 4:10

[dsteele]

Another alternative would be to recruit a troop from another council to attend your council's camp. One man's "terrible" can be another man's "terrific."

 

DS

[Eamonn]

Cover your ears DS.

While I am an ardent supporter of the council and think that we need to do what we can to ensure the success of our councils I don't think that summer camp is part of this support. We need to keep Scouts in the program if the annual trek to the same old place is not capturing the imagination of the Scouts go camp some place else. It is better that we keep the boys in the program then have them leave because they are bored.

Of course if the Council Summer Camp is that bad it needs to change. Each district has a camping chair who meets with the Council Camping committee. So while jacuzzis and dancing girls might not happen, if there is room for improvement that can be done it needs to be brought to the attention of the camping committee.

I really think that a lot of Scout camps seem to forget that the Scout at camp has paid to be there and is a customer.We need to start treating him as such. The aim of a camp is to meet his needs. The camp is only there because of him and for him.

Ok Dave you can uncover your ears /eyes now.

Eamonn

[dsteele]

Eamonn, my friend.

 

I am an American and come from a long line of them. I come from a line of Americans centuries old that has not forgotten anything.

 

I opened my ears when you told me to cover them. I opened my eyes. Sorry to be so contrary, but it is in my nature.

 

I do not disagree with anything you've said. Indeed, I agree with the whole of it.

 

I think that if a troop is dis-satisfied with anything to do with it's council camp, it owes it to the camp and the other scouts in the council to complain loudly and voriciously to the camping commitee. Adffect change before going somewhere else.

 

Above all else, keep the boys in Scouting.

 

To the others: All I ask is that you don't become one of those units who want to cry to the media whem the camp you don't attend is sold . . .

 

DS

[Twocubdad]

A dad in my pack is also an ASM in the troop. He made a point of telling me that his sons didn't sell popcorn this year as a "protest." He thinks the council keeps too much of the profits.

 

So I said to him, that being the kind of guy who puts his money where his mouth is, that he would write a check to the pack to cover the amount his protest cost us and that he of course wouldn't complain when the council started charging troops $5 a head to use the council camps.

 

His response isn't appropriate to include here, but had something to do with cattle, then walked off.

 

 

[fotoscout]

Well, always the contrarian, I think theres a problem of epic proportions. Public perception, lack of funding, and the CS program. In the cyclical nature of problems they may have each happened before. Today they are happening together, and that's not good!