meeting attendance

[OldGreyEagle]

thank you Dan, here goes

 

 

Gather pictures and facts about past troop activites.

 

How many pictures is adequate?

The cars leaving the lot?

One of the morning assembly?

 

Does the scout feel he has done what he should, where does he think he can improve

 

 

What facts are needed? How many scouts and leaders went? Are names necessary? Somewhere between "went to Gettysburg, it was ok" and a Ken Burns Documentary is what should be expected

 

Does the scout feel he has done what he should, where does he think he can improve

 

Take care of troop trophies, ribbons, ...

 

Aer they in a case? Doey they need to be polished? Case cleaned? What is meant by "take care"? Shoved in a shoebox under his bed or arranged in a display caae in the CO? Does the scout feel he has done what he should, where does he think he can improve

(See a trend?)

 

Keep information about former members.

 

How far back? Address? Phone? E-Mail? Picture?

 

Sets a good example.

 

Does the scout harrass others, is he on time, gives repsect, generally acts scout like

 

Enthusiastically wears the Scout Uniform.

Yikes, how many components does he wear? All the time?

 

Lives by the Scout Oath and Law.

What are the troops observations, other scouts, his parents, his own

 

 

Thats what I mean, have some minimal standards, and if they aren't met, why not? What are the reason? Do they sound plausible? How can the scout improve, does he need help?

 

They are starting points, not absolutes

 

[dan]

Are you saying that these all should be written down as the requirements to complete the POR? Add ons to the the job desc.?

[Bob White]

remember that the job desciptions are neither requirements or program elelments. They are suggested responsibilities for the adult leader and Junior leader to use as a trating block for determining their tasks and goals for the next 6 to 9 months.

 

Who can best evaluate if the scout met these goals. The scout himself. The adult leader should periodically review the agreed upon leadership responsibilitites to keep the Scout on track and to help the scout self evaluate how he is performing.

 

Bob White

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dan, how would you evaluate the historian's performance? For each point I have questions on how you would measure performace and then I have the scout evaluate himself, how would you do it? How would you explain to the scout what is acceptable or not?

[dan]

OGE

I sit with the scouts and work with them on what they are going to work on, and than I follow up to see what and how they are doing, giving hints and pats on the back. But this is all done verbally, some scouts write them down and some do not.

 

Know for the hard part, your questions.

How many pictures is adequate? I do not see how you can put a number on this, 8 from a campout, 50 per 6 months, this should be something that each historian should add to, so a scout takes 50 pitcures and one turns out, I would not say he did a bad job as a historian.

Cars leaving the parking lot?

One would be plenty!

 

The point I am trying to make (poorly) is that you cannot (really it should be should not) write up additonal tasks for the scout to do like polish the trophies once a month, it should just be stated as needed. As leaders it is our job to guide the scout to see that they need to be polished, not write a timetable for them.

 

I would do this all verberally or through email, not adding on to the job desc.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dan, I am not sure where, but we really got off track here, I agree with what you say.

[evmori]

dan,

Uniforms might be method but they aren't required and by a Troop requiring the Scout to be in uniform is the same as the Troop having attendance standards.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[dan]

OGE

Whew, I got off track when you posted

I have no problem with troops defining what succesfully defines completion of a POR

I thought you where saying to add to the desc. as we discussed, take 20 pitcures a month and place in a scrapbook.

 

evmori

I think I was also reading to much into what you where saying.

[dsteele]

Alright, I've been silent on this thread long enough.

 

Kindly take a deep breath and read my words carefully, thouroughly and follow me through a logic problem. Please also allow that I haven't had to file a logic premise through to the end since taking the course in 1984.

 

Take your deep breath . . .

 

Here is the premise: The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America calls for instilling the values found in the Scout Oath in Law.

 

With me so far?

 

Here are some other premises based on the first (NJ can help me with the Logic terms, I'm sure):

 

1. An Eagle Scout should embody the values found in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

2. An Eagle Scout should be a well-rounded citizen. As backup logic to number 2, I ask -- a) If Scouting performance alone certified the values of the Scout Oath and Law, why then does the BSA require letters of recommendation from such people as coaches, clergy, teachers, etc. before granting the rank? b) If Scouting performance alone merited Eagle Scout rank, why then should the Board of Review contain members of the community as a whole? c) If Eagle Scout required Scouting performance alone, why must the Eagle project be of benefit to the general community and not just to the BSA? d) If troop performance alone certified an Eagle Scout, why then must a member of the district be a part of the Board of Review?

 

3. Can a Scout become truly well-rounded if all his time is spent in an enviornment where the Scout Oath and Law is always enforced for all participants? How is a Scout to live his ethics in such an enviornment. Kids run into peer pressure in unsupervised enviornments and they resist based on what they've learned in those supervised enviornments based on what has evolved into their own set of values. This is the BSA in real action. I digress a bit, but I remember being in the 7th grade and wearing a greek fisherman's cap. I went into the bathroom of a McDonalds and some guys tried to sell me dope -- I said, "You've got to be kidding," and beat feet out of there. My values had already been set and a lot of those values came from the BSA and the rest came from my parents.

 

OK, it's late and I've lost my train of thought, so I'll come to my point.

 

The number of meetings and campouts and even fundraisers needs to be varied according to the Scout's desire, ability, strength, needs, etc. That's why you won't find a hard and fast national guideline. You, IMHO, do not need to have your unit need to make those rules. I think this type of thing is the reason for the ambiguity and the reason Troops should not set arbitrary participation rules. Work them out in Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, PLC, etc.

 

I remember reciving a bunch of young Webelos into the troop I served as Scoutmaster. One of the new Dads came to me and explained that his son was in sports for 3 of 4 seasons and that he would only be active in the troop for about 3 months at a time. I told the Dad that was fine with me, but that he shouldn't expect his son to advance in rank as quickly as the others. Not because of anything I would do to hold the kid back, but because he wouldn't be around for as many opportunities as his fellow Scouts. The Dad accepted that, the kid had a great experience and on we went.

 

DS

[pamaha]

Hey guys, I bet you thought you lost me, but I'm still here. Thank you for all your valuable input. I am now aware that there is NO attendance requirement set in stone by BSA, but that a CO can set guidelines on what it expects of its participants. If this is a good thing or not is another issue. Measuring the paticipation becomes more tricky apparently as there are as many opinions on this as there are people involved. YES, we always try to encourage kids to keep coming back, even if it IS sporadic. YES, we make him feel a part of the group and greet him enthusiastically when he DOES show up, but does he pass his BOR when the conversation goes like this:

"Well, Johnnie, we see you're here to advance to STAR. That's great. Tell us about the POR and how you feel you accomplished your job."

"Well, I was PL for the Dragons and I always made sure I ket my patrol in line during meetings when I was here."

"OK, did you have any patrol meetings?"

"no"

"HOw about on campouts...how did being PL make you behave differently inthose situations?"

"Well, I don't like camping so I haven't been on any campouts since I've been PL."

"Have you had discussions with the ASPL or SPL about other things the troop might do that would interest you more and make you want to be here more often? OR talked to the other boys in your patrol about other activities they might want to do?"

"Not really. My older brother is an Eagle and my dad thinks I should be one, too so that's really why I'm here."

 

The kids certainly get an "A" for honesty, and WHATEVER he can take away from scouting and use in his life is a plus, no doubt, but do you still change the whole program for ONE and perhaps drive out the other 39??? Do you suggest that maybe he try to find another troop that might do the stuff he likes to do better than camping? Our troop has one camp out about every 4-5 weeks so it's obvious he will not be "participating" a whole lot...and I know you're going to say. "Find him another POR", but THIS is the one he wanted and got.

OK...I see one of my biggest problems is the SM and ASM's not guiding this boy properly. Heck, that opens a whole other can or worms!

Anyway, thanks guys/gals. I hope I can always come back for more feedback!

[Bob White]

Pamaha,

Before I give a complete response I need to know if ALL requirements were signed off (except for BOR) before he came before the board.

 

BW

[Proud Eagle]

I bet I know where BW is going with this. I could be wrong but here is just what I am guessing. I am sure Bob White will correct me if I am wrong, but I just couldn't resist.

 

If all requirements were signed off then the BOR must accept the requirement as being completed because it was signed off.

 

Now if say the POR requirement was going to be signed off on during the BOR then it would be up to the board (actually it would be up to anyone on the board capable of signing off the requirement) to decide to take it or not.

 

 

 

Now I don't happen to agree with taking any requirement that is signed off during a BOR. Part of what I see the BOR doing is making certain that the requirements were completed in a way that is consistent with the BSA program. If the board discovers this is not the case it should not approve the advancement. Instead it should discuss what the Scout needs to do to complete the advancement. Then it should do what it can to inform whoever signed off the requirement and the SM that there is a problem with how the program is being implemented, and suggest that it be corrected. The board should also probably make the rest of the committee aware that there was a problem, so the committee can decide what, if any, action needs to be taken to ensure the program is implemented properly.

 

 

[Bob White]

Not quite Proud Eagle. But lets wait to hear Pamahas response before I answer. If we don't hear back from her tonight thenI will post my response tomorrow.

 

BW

 

 

[Proud Eagle]

To answer some questions posed to me by Bob White earlier in this thread (4th page I believe) I offer the following answers. Quoted material is from Bob White.

 

"Why would you drop him from your roster before his membership expires?"

I don't think I would. Notice I said "could", not "would". I am suggesting it may be done, not that it should be. Though I would take the actions (or more correctly, inactions) I described as a very strong indicator that the Scout no longer wished to be involved in the unit.

 

"He has done nothing in violation of the BSA?"

No he has not violated the BSA. Even if he had I am not the BSA's father or brother so it isn't like I am going to go get my gun, shoot him, and bury him in the cornfield.

 

OK. That was a bit of humor on my part. (Sad isn't it?) No, he has not violated BSA policy by the actions I describe.

 

"What is he costing you?"

He is costing the troop time and money. People are spending time calling him, trying to keep him updated on troop activities, sending things in the mail, etc. He is taking spot in a patrol that may very well need another active member rather than an inactive one. Now none of these things are reasons that someone must be removed from the roster (either the official or unofficial one), though they could cause some unit some where to decide to do so.

[dsteele]

Dropping him from the roster, if done (I'm not making a judgement on the issue) would be unofficial.

 

His BSA registration is paid through the expiration date of the unit charter. The council could drop the Scout from the official unit roster if he were to transfer to another unit or die prior to the expiration of the unit charter.

 

They may not be active in your troop, but they are still registered members of the Boy Scouts of America -- whether they show up or not is a different deal.

 

DS