Big Council vs. Small Council?

[Fat Old Guy]

I'm in a big council. We have a gazillion districts, a budzillion Scouts. For a long time, I thought that this was a great thing. After this is America where biggerer is betterer. However, after Man O'Steele gave the numbers for his council, I began to rethink my position.

 

Every now and then, Bob White says, "you need to discuss this with your Scout Executive." Not being on the Council Committee, the likelyhood of even meeting the SE is pretty low. I've been to Pow Wows, Univ. of Scouting, Program Launch, and other Council events and I've never seen the man there. I once actually called the Council offices and tried to talk to the SE. I was redirected everywhere but they had a wall up around the SE.

 

I would hope that in a small council like Dave's that the likelyhood of being able to talk to the SE would be much greater. There is something nice about being able to talk to the person at the top.

 

 

 

[dsteele]

There are advantages and disadvantages for each council size. Having relatively easy access to the Scout Executive is one benefit to being in a small council. In a larger council, they have the advantage of having a hierarchy that can promote DE's up the ranks and keep the benefit of their experience and knowledge in the council. In the council I serve, once a DE has put in his/her three years, it's time for them to move. We don't have any district that's big enough to justify having a Senior DE.

 

There are other differences. Not to hijack FOG's thread, but in an attempt to keep it going. What size council are you in? Use any measurement you want, but I'm curious as to how volunteers perceive thir council's size.

 

DS

 

[FScouter]

Our district has 3400 members, 185 units. I only know that because I cornered the FD and asked. That seems big, but with nothing to compare to, who knows? There are 6 districts in the council. Membership numbers are not published, and those who should know either don't, or don't want to tell. I don't understand the reluctance to discuss the stats.

[Eamonn]

Having a big Metro Council next door on one side of us we tend to think of ourselves as being small. With 10,600 youth members we are about the same size as the council that Dave is in. I don't have a count on all the new units but we were just over the 200 mark.

We have four Districts. All but one of our DE's is a senior DE.

There has been for sometime an ongoing discussion by some of members about how hard it is for a small Council to survive. Mainly because of the cost of running a small Council.

Rumor has it that the Council on the other side of us is having a really hard time and is carrying a tremendous amount of debt. They have had to cut DE's and have done away with the Learning For Life program.

We have been very lucky that the staff that come to our Council seem to stay for a very long time. We also have a very good endowment fund, which is well managed and has done well even with all the problems that the market has had over the past couple of years.

Still we are having a hard time balancing a budget. As long as this is true any idea of a capital campaign is almost out of the question.

We would love to put in a Cub World at our smaller camp site but we just don't have the money. We do have a couple of large corporations but they are not really behind Scouting and don't do much. This means we keep going back to the small businesses. Being a small business owner I can attest to how hard it is to know where to donate money. I get at least five letters a week asking for some kind of donation.

While I have never been in a large council and don't know how much longer the small Councils will last. For now I like our small one.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

"Our district has 3400 members, 185 units."

 

Damn! That's big for a district. I was told that a district really shouldn't have more than 50 units, 60 at most. If you have too many units, you over work the DE.

 

 

[dsteele]

Just a guess on my part, but if the 3,400 185 unit district follows national recommendations, it probably has a class 5 or above district director supervising 2 or more DE positions. Whether those positions are filled or not is a matter of budget.

 

It's a big district. In fact, some class 800 councils are smaller than that district.

 

DS

[Overtrained]

I've worked and served in both big and small. I prefer small, but would miss the advantages of the big.

 

I'm in a large metro council with 12+ districts. Mine is the largest district with about 75 units with Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews.

[Laurie]

The council number only a few months ago was approaching 90,000. It is now 64,000. I believe Learning for Life (which is a large number) was part of the previous number. Council has over 1,000 units. The DE says he has 25 units, but I believe that is 25 Cub Packs, for that is how many packs he has called for roundtable. The number of districts is going down as several have merged. The mergers must be for either financial reasons or due to lack of personnel (and they go together, I know), for an all-suburbs district recently merged with an all city district. The comparisons are few in the two areas. Three districts elsewhere in the council merged to create one district about the time our district did, and I hear other mergers are coming. We are large, and we have 2 offices that execs work from. I honestly don't what to expect, but both office buildings seem virtually empty considering the number of youth served in this area. The DE is overworked: he serves as DE, roundtable commissioner, day camp staff, popcorn coordinator with a volunteer, trainer, and the list goes on. Quite frankly, he is so busy that I don't how he can do anything well. As I follow the boards here, I am learning that this is more than a DE should do, but the people aren't avaible for help...or it is the same few over and over again. Pros and cons? I don't know for certain, but it seems that big makes the work a greater task, and having a big council does not seem (in this volunteer's eyes) to make for a bigger staff.

[troop_358_potlatch]

Our council serves over 13,600 youth. It has 12 districts in it, 3 scout camps,and 3 scout shops.Our district has 64 units in it. Our SE is available for any questions that may arise. The council covers a large geographical area. Our district covers 2 counties and a couple of small towns(pop. about 100-150)in a third county.

[SR540Beaver]

The Last Frontier Council is where EagleDad and I serve. The Last Frontier Council is made up of more than 35,000 youth and more than 8,000 volunteer Scouters and adults in twenty-four counties across central, western, and southwestern Oklahoma. We have 11 districts and 2 Learning for Life programs. I've never seen other council's numbers to compare to, but I've always considered us to be a fairly large council. We own and operate 5 properties. One of the advantages I've seen after bunking with a fellow from a smaller council at Wood Badge is that we have more properties and training opportunities. I have no idea how many units our council has.

[shemgren]

Central Minnesota Council where I serve has 9,700 youth served by 2000+ registered adults. It covers 11 counties in Central Minnesota with three districts, however four funcutionally. One district has a large town in it and that is treated in alot of ways a separate district.

[Heacox]

We've just learned that our Council is consolidating with a neighboring council to make, what we feel, is a huge council geographically. We're so caught off guard that we aren't even sure what to ask or which way to go. Our council has 6200 members/314 units and the other has 18000 members/552 units. Our cub camp has already been sold; our boy scout camp is on the market or will be soon. Only one scout camp will remain for the entire new council, with a Cub World facility planned sometime in the future. Our council's scout shop will close, the satellite will close, and only one scout shop will remain (in the other council). This will cover about 14 counties, probably 1/3 of the state of SC. Justification seems to be that it is more efficient to operate a larger council; our council has had financial difficulties in the past few years but has a sizeable endowment, I believe. We feel like we're being "eaten by the giant." Previously, I'd often heard comments that the council we're in is too large, that it's too far for people to travel to day camp or to the scout shop. That problem will be worse now, for even more people. What are your comments?

[Heacox]

We've just learned that our Council is consolidating with a neighboring council to make, what we feel, is a huge council geographically. We're so caught off guard that we aren't even sure what to ask or which way to go. Our council has 6200 members/314 units and the other has 18000 members/552 units. Our cub camp has already been sold; our boy scout camp is on the market or will be soon. Only one scout camp will remain for the entire new council, with a Cub World facility planned sometime in the future. Our council's scout shop will close, the satellite will close, and only one scout shop will remain (in the other council). This will cover about 14 counties, probably 1/3 of the state of SC. Justification seems to be that it is more efficient to operate a larger council; our council has had financial difficulties in the past few years but has a sizeable endowment, I believe. We feel like we're being "eaten by the giant." Previously, I'd often heard comments that the council we're in is too large, that it's too far for people to travel to day camp or to the scout shop. That problem will be worse now, for even more people. What are your comments?

[scoutldr]

We have 11,000 scouts in 355 units and 7 districts in our council. We have only one pro in our district, but his title is District Director. He reports to a Field Director, who reports to the SE. I still don't understand the hierarchy.

 

I think consolidation is done purely for financial reasons. If you can collapse 2 councils into one, you only need one SE, thus saving about a hundred grand off the top, plus benefits. When membership drops, camp attendance drops (or they go out of council), FOS drops, it's hard to maintain the same level of infrastructure and overhead. It's purely business.

[NeilLup]

Having been a volunteer in 10 councils ranging from the largest (GNYC) to one of the smallest (15 units, I think this is a great question.

 

There are pluses and minuses to a larger council. The pluses are that the resources are there to do a great job with the basics and to have plenty of extras. The minuses are that communications can get to be a problem.

 

The best experience for a district or council level volunteer can be in a wealthy, well funded small council. The worse experience is in a small council in deep debt or other financial trouble. Everything is difficult and a matter of compromise and making do. Nothing is fun or particularly rewarding. And children suffer because camp quality suffers and service to units suffers.

 

My current council has about 20,000 youth members. My current volunteer job is Vice President for Operations of the council. The District Chairmen report to me and it is my job to ensure that the units get good service and the Districts operate well.

 

From the point of view of unit, it really shouldn't matter if you are in a large or a small council provided that you get the services that you want and need, and actually in a larger council, that should be more possible. The problems come if communications break down. Another problem comes if the the council becomes centrallized and the Scout Executive demands to be involved in every decision. In a large council, that really isn't possible. For things to work, decisions need to be delegated. And at the same time, many of us Scout leaders like to deal with the top guy. In a large council, the SE just can't be involved in every Eagle Board or Blue and Gold.

 

Typically when a merger occurs, there are meetings to describe the new structure. Attend one or more of those meetings and say something like "I understand and agree that the larger council will offer more opportunities, but I understand that communications can be a problem in a larger council. What is going to be done to improve communications and make sure that the units can get what they want?" If possible, don't accept the answer that they will use the normal district structure with Commissioner service, etc. That communication structure often is greatly strained in a merger. Perhaps there will be a task force on communications in the new council and you can be on it.

 

Done right, a larger council offers more. But it requires a bit more understanding on the part of the units to make things work. There is less room for hand holding by the council and for waiting until the last minute to sign up for events, etc.