Girl Scouts On the Hot Seat

[BadenP]

fred

 

First you need to become more familiar with the English language, you cannot be bigoted against an institution, you can be bigoted against Catholic lay people or Catholic priests, etc. My prejudice is against the institutional Catholic Church at the Vatican which continues to delude and put fear into millions of Catholics world wide with threats of eternal damnation and hellfire by espousing false doctrines and a totally twisted and false interpretation of the Bible. I am not bigotted against Catholics and I have many good friends who are priests and others who are regular Catholic Church goers.

 

Fred to make it easy on you start with looking up on wikipedia "homosexual priests", they will give several references of studies done showing percentages ranging from a low of 15% to a high of 80%, then go to any of the references they provide and see the truth for yourself. These figures have also been discussed among my priest associates and other ordained clergy like myself and makes for some very interesting discussions. This is not some deep dark secret hidden away in Rome but a topic that has been throughly investigated and discussed very openly.

 

Fred nothing is worse than a slam given by a zealot like yourself with absolutely no basis in fact to support your claim, in fact I could claim that you were bigoted against anyone who was not Catholic, but that would put me in the same category as yourself and I would not ever make that claim, even if it were true. I applaud the GSUSA for standing up to these few overzealous and radical bishops who are looking for any way to defer attention away from their ownchurhes heinous acts. Pax Fred!

[Peregrinator]

"Threats of eternal damnation and hellfire"? LOL. For someone who claims to have many Catholic acquaintances and to be a former Catholic, your view of the Catholic Church seems more informed by Hollywood movies than actual experience. The statistics you cited early in this thread, if true, hardly seem like they could apply to a deluded and fearful congregation.

[perdidochas]

Moosetracker,

What in the world are you talking about, in terms of the examples of what Catholic troops supposedly can't do?

 

Please stop making up strawmen. It's a weak form of argument. If you can show true examples of where Catholic troops haven't gone on trips due to boycotts, then you have a point. I've never heard of it. I'm Catholic, and I'm a committee member of a troop sponsored by a Catholic Church. We have never boycotted anything, nor not gone on a trip for any silly reason like the ones you made up. I think you have Catholics confused with secular liberals, who do such forms of boycotts (like the people who boycott Domino's pizza because of Domino's founders deeply Catholic views, or those who boycott Coors beer because of the conservatism of the Coors family).

[Beavah]

My prejudice is against the institutional Catholic Church at the Vatican which continues to delude and put fear into millions of Catholics world wide with threats of eternal damnation and hellfire by espousing false doctrines and a totally twisted and false interpretation of the Bible.

 

Yah, hmmm....

 

Well, I suppose recognizin' a prejudice is da first step. "Hi, my name is BadenP, and I am a bigot." "Hi, BadenP".

 

Now I get that da Catholic Church has some odd practices, and since I ain't a Catholic I obviously don't agree with all their theology.

 

But "espousing false doctrines and a totally twisted and false interpretation of the Bible?". I think a Scout should be Friendly, Kind, and Reverent, eh? It's fine to disagree, and to argue theology with friends. But this just seems over the line, eh? Like several miles over the line.

 

As do many of da comments in this and other threads on this topic by moosetracker and you and one or two others. Can yeh take it somewhere else? Surely there's a small rural shack somewhere yeh can get together without all the rest of us.

 

Beavah

 

[perdidochas]

BadenP,

 

As a lifelong Catholic, I can't recall being threatened with hellfire and damnation. The emphasis of the post Vatican II Catholic Church (which is the only one I can remember) has been on God's forgiveness and love.

 

Most bigots claim that they have "friends" of the group that they are bigoted against.

[moosetracker]

From the magazine article from the OP.

 

 

To the Girl Scouts, some of the attacks seem to be a form of guilt by association. Critics contend that Girl Scouts materials shouldn't contain links to groups such as Doctors without Borders, the Sierra Club and Oxfam because they support family planning or emergency contraception.

 

So what does this mean to the Boy Scouts?.. Either there is a double standard, or the Boy Scout troops should also think twice about all the side issues a group supports before utilizing it..

 

 

One repeated complaint, revived in February by the Catholic broadcasting network EWTN, involves an International Planned Parenthood brochure made available to girls attending a Girl Scout workshop at a 2010 United Nations event. The brochure "Healthy, Happy and Hot" advised young people with HIV on how to safely lead active sex lives.

The Girl Scouts say they had had no advance knowledge of the brochure and played no role in distributing it.

 

So what does this mean to the Boy Scouts? Either there is a double standard, or make sure that no questionable literature is passed out at a World Jamboree you attend..

 

 

Another complaint involved a Girl Scout blog suggesting that girls read an article about Chavez who is Catholic in Marie Claire magazine. Critics said the blog's link led to a Marie Claire home page promoting, among other items, a sex advice article.

 

A suggestion in a blog !

So what does this mean to the Boy Scouts? Either there is a double standard or you should start to worry, about this forum for one thing any other person who blogs who promote things against your churchs views..

 

Peregrinator (this thread) 5/14/2012

 

As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I think one could argue that its support for "family planning" is not on the same scale as Planned Parenthood's. Nevertheless, if the BSA is going to take a truly neutral stance on the subject they probably should not have a relationship with the Sierra Club.

 

In other words I would interpret this to mean that although you note that Sierra Clubs endorsement of family planning is not the same as Planned Parenthood.. You fear a relationship with them.. Not only that, you fear the repercussions of my unit working with the Sierra Club. And you have basically stated it would be a good idea that we boycott the Sierra Club in order to stay neutral (Psst.. which is not staying neutral, it is taking sides..) Using the Sierra Club for their real purpose, and ignoring those items that the BSA really dont get involved with is staying neutral..

 

In conclusion.. You worry about what side issues certain organizations have promoted, I will enjoy the main purpose that they are offering the boys. I just hope, my units enjoyment of these organizations does not come back to bite you in the tush.. But, if now you are not worried about the side issues other organizations support, well then welcome back to the fun side of scouting.. I stil hope, your enjoyment of getting out and living life, does not come back to bite you in the tush.. But, at least it will be your actions and not mine.

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Beav and Perdid

 

As Catholics you do know exactly what I was saying is true, deny it all you want, much like the hierarchy in Rome does. Vatican II was a much needed reform movement and offered some real possibility of reform and openess however it was never widely accepted or ever reached its full potential due to some powerful Catholic hierarchy in Rome, especially the current Pope who seems hellbent to bring the Catholic Church back to its pre 1960 status.

 

Beav-you can tell others to keep their opinions to themselves but I suggest you do the same, espcially your folksy backwoods religious views,legal opinions and scouting regulations. It truly has to make you wonder as the few catholics who protest the loudest in this thread have not offered any counter references to support their opinions of the Catholic Church. Maybe it is because the world has seen on the news, in print, and in legal cases firsthand for the last ten years at least just how much coverup the Vatican has done with pedophile priests, bishops and cardinals, including the Popes own brother, it all reeks of corruption and dishonsety from the highest levels at the Vatican from the supposedly "incorruptable one true church", what a joke that is eh Beav. The facts speak clearly for themselves and God will be the final judge, however you catholics maybe surprised to learn that you are not the only ones in heaven. Call me bigoted if you wish but I have been on both sides of these issues and have found out the truth about the institution calling itself the "one true church", which is the biggest fallacy of all time.

[fred8033]

Zealot - That's a first. Cool.

 

Studies ranging from 10% to 80% - yeah ummm if you bother to use any of those numbers without understanding where they come from, what they represent and if they are real, ... then your just plain intellectually dishonest.

 

"threats of eternal damnation and hellfire" - I can't remember a single sermon about it. I grew up with a church that preached love, forgiveness, service and prayer. Sermons on hell and damnation sound more like some street corner self-proclaimed evalgelist. ... And ya know the last street barker I encountered was two years ago at 1:00am December 25th leaving midnight mass at my church after celebrating the greatest Christmas gift ever. And there on his home made pulpit (literally, a platform he built himself) was a man who was screaming at the top of his lungs for us to convert because our church was so evil. On Christmas morning. As we rejoice for the birth of our Lord. I don't even need to quote what he said because he sounded just like you BadenP.

[Beavah]

Yah, BadenP, as an outsider to da Catholic community I can't speak too much to da Vatican (one or two or all that jazz). I can say that for all da strum and drang about da wicked hierarchy, from a purely business point of view they have a remarkably small and inexpensive central organization for a worldwide corporation of that size (plus a nation-state government). Like any large human organization, they're goin' to have their competing factions and bureaucracy issues. Folks in liberal first-world countries want one thing, folks in conservative 3rd world countries want somethin' different.

 

Da only thing that would be odd is not to expect that sort of thing, eh? I reckon it's unfair to 'em to believe they're goin' to be perfect just because they wear robes. That seems to be what yeh want of 'em, eh?

 

I take it yeh grew up in da Catholic church? It seems yeh have that rebellious teenager thing goin' on. Yeh have discovered that mommy and daddy aren't perfect. Good for you! Now yeh need to finish growin' up, eh? With a more mature perspective, yeh move on from hollerin' about how mommy and daddy aren't perfect, are hypocrites, yadda yadda. Yeh figure out that though they're not saints, in the grand scheme of things they're OK. Even pretty good. Yeh can still treat 'em as family, and love 'em as parents, even if yeh roll your eyes occasionally.

 

For da rest of us Christians, da Catholics are just family, eh? A bit eccentric, perhaps, sometimes tragic, but sometimes good leaders and even heroes. Like any human institution, they have all da weaknesses of humans. Yeh think our Protestant community doesn't have sex abuse and spousal abuse and preachers of hellfire and damnation? Yeh think within many American Protestant churches there hasn't been a move toward a more traditional pre-1960s morality? Have yeh been livin' under a rock? There's been a back-to-traditional-views trend that goes beyond even Christendom to Islam and Judaism as well. That's just a modern cultural phenomenon. Why would yeh expect Catholics to be immune?

 

Beavah

 

[Tampa Turtle]

When I was a catholic boy I remember one priest who did a lot of hell-fire and damnation speeches back in the 60's. He was pretty unpopular and only lasted a couple of years before the parish committee "strongly encouraged" the Bishop to reassign him.

 

Baden P. I think your comments are pretty un-scoutlike. I am getting sick of all the Catholic bashing going on. Some of it sounds pretty asinine. I am sure Merlyn is having a chuckle on the compassion of all the good Christians here.

 

Personally I left the Catholic church because I could not in good conscience belong to the human organization after their responses to the scandals. But I was OK with the theology even if it was difficult to live with sometimes.

 

 

[BadenP]

Aw fred

 

When you don't have a leg to stand on you resort to insults. As Jesus said of the temple priests of his time they showed off with public displays of their "holiness" yet their worship was hollow and without meaning or understanding. If you do not hear about hellfire and damnation in the mass, then I think you are either not paying attention to the Eucharistic and other prayers used or like many Catholics these days not even bothering to go to mass on a regular basis, in either case it is a personal interpretation built on sand without any foundation and does not reflect true catholic theology.

 

However this thread is about the Catholic Churchs unnecessary and vicious attacks on the GSUSA and to me that speaks volumes about the hierarchy of the Catholic church. We can debate theology on another thread, I wonder what you all would do and say if the Catholic bishops severed all ties to the BSA for being anti-Catholic?? Would you be willing to give up your BSA memberships if threatened with excommunication?? Sadly most of you would probably say yes.

 

Beav, Let me tell you about the wonderful Catholic clergy from my own experiences. As a youth two priests abused two of my very good friends multiple times, one of them tried with me and received a powerful kick to the groin instead. These cases went to the Bishop where he told the parents that it was just the boys word against the priests, who were "holy men". He transferred these two priests to other churches. So don't tell me about "growing up" you backwood hick, the Catholic priesthood and hierarchy is nothing short of an abomination to both humanity and God as is their false doctrines. They are not Christian brothers by any stretch of the imagination and do not even recognize the validity of any other Christian tradition or ordination outside their own.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[moosetracker]

Well BP.. If it was personal ex-communication, I can see even a so-so Catholic having a difficult time, even if they loved scouts..

 

If they were just not going to be CO of BSA anymore due to being associated to the other BSA units with heathen attitudes.. But, not personally ex-communication.. Then I would see the split of the 20% of 100% faithful following the church's opinion, while the othe 80% set up shop with the Salvation Army, or VFW and continue on with their BSA while still considering them self Catholic.

[Peregrinator]

BadenP,

 

Counter-references to what? You talk about the Church preaching hellfire and damnation but don't offer any references. You make the claim, the burden of proof is on you. I can't prove a negative.

 

What about the Church's "attacks" on the GSUSA are "vicious"? Is it "vicious" to ask questions of another organization? Wouldn't that just be due diligence? Should an organization not check periodically to see if other organizations with whom they have relationships don't contradict their values?

[fred8033]

Beavah - Very well said.

 

Tampa Turtle - That's funny in a sad way. I fell away during college, but later my wife and I started attending an evangelical church near our 1st house. I returned to the Catholic Church around twelve years ago because of theology. (too long a discussion for a bulletin board). IMHO, scandals exist everywhere. But it's hard to take the external bad press and bigotry and the internal total lack of marketing sense. For example, if you let an external organization like GSUSA know you are looking at the churches relationship with them, then you should darn well know it will get into press headlines.

 

Anyway, I wish GSUSA the best and hope this is resolved successfully from both sides.

[moosetracker]

Some where in the middle is the truth..

 

Don't know much about Hell & Damnation sermons, but I do know the two sermons that were most in the news were not preaching on "love, forgiveness, service and prayer".. That would be the boycott the government over the health care policy, and the Obama's actions to Hitler and Stalin..

 

But, hey if the sermon doesn't raise some eyebrows, then it really will not find it's way into becoming a news story..