Girl Scouts On the Hot Seat

[moosetracker]

Peregrinator - As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I think one could argue that its support for "family planning" is not on the same scale as Planned Parenthood's. Nevertheless, if the BSA is going to take a truly neutral stance on the subject they probably should not have a relationship with the Sierra Club.

 

 

 

Who says boycotting a group whose main purpose is outdoor adventure, when the boy scouts are into outdoor adventure, due to a side issue they support, that the boy scouts do not get into, is staying neutral on the subject?

 

That by all definition is standing up and taking a side on the issue.. In the girl scouts case, they are expected to be strong armed into supporting or boycotting everything the Catholic church is???

 

The Catholic church has no rights to tell a group that simply uses it's building that they have to stand up and fight on all the issues it deems they should.. Girl Scouts are not the right arm of the Catholic church..

 

As for Boy Scouts they can tell their own BS units that they have to miss truely exciting adventures due to their issues that everyone must agree with them, or be kicked to the curbside.. But they have no authority to tell my unit that is not run by Catholics that..

 

That is similar to if I wish to boycott Walmart for their employee practices. So I refuse to use my hairdressers anymore, as the broom they used to sweep up the hair was from Walmart, I refuse to allow my son to play in little leagues anymore because some of the food at their consession stand was from Walmart.. I am no longer friends with Blanche, Sam and Larry they have bought stuff from Walmart.. Today I first fired 3 people for buying from Walmart, then ended up having to quit my job, my employer bought something from Walmart, and would not return it.. How dare other people not boycott what I boycott!

 

Basically you can boycott what you wish to. But you do not have the right to strong arm everyone around you into following suit. Well you can but don't be surprised when you alienate everyone around you. And guess what? Most people will say good riddence to you!.. (maybe my employer will even rehire those people I fired for buying from Walmart.)

[Peregrinator]

Who says boycotting a group whose main purpose is outdoor adventure, when the boy scouts are into outdoor adventure, due to a side issue they support, that the boy scouts do not get into, is staying neutral on the subject?

 

I think most people associate the Sierra Club with environmentalism, not with outdoor adventure. But YMMV.

 

That by all definition is standing up and taking a side on the issue.. In the girl scouts case, they are expected to be strong armed into supporting or boycotting everything the Catholic church is???

 

The Catholic church has no rights to tell a group that simply uses it's building that they have to stand up and fight on all the issues it deems they should.. Girl Scouts are not the right arm of the Catholic church..

 

I didn't say anything about strong-arming. The Church is definitely within its rights to ban the Girl Scouts from meeting on its property if they can't answer questions to the bishops' satisfaction. But that is not likely to happen. No one has said that the GSUSA must help fight the Church's battles.

[qwazse]

We are seriously mistaken if we think this is an issue of property use.

By virtue of the fact that the GSUSA has young Catholic women in its care, it asserts the right to understand (and potentially counter) any cultural influences that may be contrary to its teachings.

[Tampa Turtle]

Moose,

 

Of course a Catholic church can deny a group the use of it's building. Just like any other religious organization. Of course they may incur the wrath of their parishioners if they do like the strong arming; folks vote with their feet and money.

 

But I do not like the guilt by association or the beating up on GSUSA.

[moosetracker]

Sure they do Tempa.. But, the only thing they can revoke is the building.. They have no other control over the situation.. Regardless of if there are Catholic girls enrolled in their program or not..

 

In the case of the Catholic girls, their parents who might be one of the 80% ale carte Catholics will choose to keep the girls in regardless of the fact that a troop in another town is using the Sierra Group or not.

 

The Catholic church can preach & lecture etc.. But, the parents will be able to judge for them self who is being radical, and who is being controlling and can make their own decision.

 

Just like I can stop going to my hairdressers because they bought a Walmart broom.. No one says I have to go to that hairdressers, or even that I ever have to cut my hair again, if I can find no hairdresser around who boycotts Walmart..

[shortridge]

"By virtue of the fact that the GSUSA has young Catholic women in its care, it asserts the right to understand (and potentially counter) any cultural influences that may be contrary to its teachings."

 

Let's rephrase.

 

"By virtue of the fact that the BSA has young men and women of GLBT parents in its care, they assert the right to understand (and potentially counter) any cultural influences that may be contrary to their teachings."

 

Only a few minor changes. Yet certain folks here who are celebrating the bishops' investigation are also crying foul over any criticism of BSA's policies by supporters of equality, even parents with their kids in the program. The notion "love it or leave it" has come up more than once, as has the sentiment that they can always start a new group. So what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Either accept that outsiders can lobby a group to change its ways, or condemn the bishops' actions just like you (a general you) have condemned "gay activists."

[SeattlePioneer]

Both GSUSA and Catholic Bishops have liberties and are entitled to use them. If people aren't happy with a program they are entitled to take action to try to change it or to quit and find alternatives.

 

The main objection of the right has been the left's attempts to use government power to coerce BSA. That's a lot different than private individuals and groups acting to form and influence voluntary associations.

[shortridge]

What "government power"?

 

Insisting that a government which bans discrimination should not support a private organization that discriminates?

[Peregrinator]

qwazse,

 

You are quite right that it is more than just a property issue but I am speaking in terms of practicality. In all likelihood, even if the GSUSA were banninated from Church property that would have little real effect on the Girl Scouts' membership, even among Catholics.

[Nike]

Banninated?

 

I'm offically old.(This message has been edited by Nike)

[shortridge]

It's a geek thing. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banninate

 

[perdidochas]

BadenP,

 

Please either post or message me the article that supports:

 

3) The Catholic hierarchy has declared homosexuality a grave mortal sin, yet over 60%(conservatively) of American priests have admitted to being practicing homosexuals.

 

 

I'm Catholic, and I think the above statistic is totally made-up by a Catholic bashing group.

[perdidochas]

On the whole subject,

 

Locally, our diocese is "close to Rome" meaning fairly conservative. Several GS troops that I know of (and considering I only know of a few) meet in Catholic Churches. Sounds like the whole controversy may be local, and not something that the American Bishops as a whole are pushing.

 

I'm disturbed at the lack of reverence (meaning tolerance) exhibited in this thread. It just isn't what I would view as scoutlike.

 

Finally, Moosetracker, what do you mean by:

 

"As for Boy Scouts they can tell their own BS units that they have to miss truely exciting adventures due to their issues that everyone must agree with them, or be kicked to the curbside.. But they have no authority to tell my unit that is not run by Catholics that.."

 

What truly exciting adventures can Catholic Boy Scouts not do? Did I miss something?

 

 

P.S. I stand corrected about the 60% stat. Not by a Catholic bashing group, but by a anti-celibacy Jesuit priest (which is close to the same thing). I don't doubt that the percentage of homosexually oriented priests is higher than the general population (my readings indicate 10-30% seems to be the reasonable figure), I do doubt that the percentage of practicing homosexual priests is 60%.

 

 

 

[fred8033]

60% ??? BadenP is conveniently misquoting again to assert his anti-Catholic bigotry. And I do clearly 100% mean bigotry in every ugly hatefilled sense of the word.

 

The 60% comes from a Vatican statistical analysis of the numbers. When clerical abuse happens, world wide the average is 60% homosexual in nature. In the US, it's 80% homosexual. It's not at all saying 60% or 80% of priests, monks or deacons are gay. It's analyzing the situations when abuse does happen. It's not at all analyzing the percent of the population.

 

 

....

 

 

My wife says I'm a pretty socially liberal person, but I have mostly aligned with the Republican camp. I think the main reason is that when I was young all the mean ugly unreasonable bigotry ... and hatred ... I saw was from the Deomcratic side. When I saw misrepresentation of the facts, it was from a liberal side. We see that ugly rhetoric again in this discussion topic.

 

I know it happens on both sides, but when I heard just plain ugly rhetoric, it was from Totenberg about Helms. Whoopi Goldberg on Sen Dole. Heck, I only ever heard racist comments when working in a union factory. I know it happens both sides of the fence. But even today, I see hatred inflamed mostly from one side.

 

Perhaps, I was sheltered. My early conservative examples were thru the local Dorthy Day center or the Little Sisters of the Poor or Sister Giovanni helping the local hispanic high school drop out popuation. That's the conservatives I learned from. And ya know what, that's been fairly consistent thru the years.

 

....

 

So a group of Catholic representatives are concerned that they are sponsoring a group whose culture and teachings might anti-Catholic. That's their right. There is a culture clash between GSUSA teachings and Catholic church teachings. But it's not central to GSUSA ... IMHO. Ideally, GSUSA should leave those topics to the families and the sponsor groups and the church should be able to just let the GSUSA be. But we're pretty political these days with many people spouting hatred. Just read what some people have written in this thread.

 

....

 

 

On a lighter side that might be more topical....

 

"Girls need both female and male role models to be truly well rounded.", published in girl scouts, Girl Scout Council of the Nation's Capital, Volunteer Essentials, Girl Scout Year, 2011-2012, page 68.

 

.... huh .... funny .... I think my Catholic Church would agree with this.

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Are you telling me that units with Catholic CO's can't do anything fun or adventurous??.. So sad.

 

I mean, hopefully they can go out into the woods, don't you think?.. But, if the Catholics are going to call a boycott on anything or anyone that doesn't hold their beliefs.. There will be a lot of places they can not go.. But, my CO is not Catholic, so I can go to all the places they choose to boycott..

 

So if Catholic units can't go due to Cape Cod to go out to Nantucket Island due to the gay community, well our units can go.

If Catholic units can't go to the local climbing wall because the owners believe in birth control.. Well our units can go..

If Catholic units can't go white water rafting because the company running the expeditions, support the re-election of Obama... well our units can go..