Girl Scouts On the Hot Seat

[BadenP]

pere

 

I gave you all kinds of sources,still available on line the Vatican Bank scandal is not only online but was on every news program and newspaper in the country. They were not accusations but truth, in fact Interpol seized three million dollars of the Vatican Banks funds as a result of the investigation. Do you live on a deserted island or just too lazy pere geesshh.

[Nike]

Girl Scouts still sell cookies because Girl Scouts sell cookies. The big bucks are not in cookies!

 

Also, funds raised during a program year should be spent during that program year unless the troop has a plan to spend them in the near term, such as saving up for a big trip. In the States, in order for the girls to go on big, expensive, long trips, they have to have Council approval. So in theory when the bookkeepers see that Troop 123 has $10,000 in their account holding over for the next year, they can cross reference that with filed travel plans for that troop to visit the Sangam World Center in India the next year. Otherwise, there will be questions as to why all the fundraising and no fund expending.

[Peregrinator]

I gave you all kinds of sources,still available on line the Vatican Bank scandal is not only online but was on every news program and newspaper in the country. They were not accusations but truth, in fact Interpol seized three million dollars of the Vatican Banks funds as a result of the investigation. Do you live on a deserted island or just too lazy pere geesshh.

 

I asked you to document a specific allegation you made (4th ranking criminal money laundering operation according to the State Dept.) and you're either unwilling or unable to do so. Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur. I'm not going to document your claims for you. As I've pointed out above, I am well aware that the Vatican Bank has been embroiled in scandals. I'm well aware of the other scandals afflicting the Church. That doesn't mean that one can make accusations willy-nilly without backing them up.

 

moosetracker, isn't it reasonable that if Catholics are making accusations against the GSUSA that their bishops should follow up on them? If your kids come home and tell you that their teachers are filling their heads with hogwash -- even if it could well not be true -- isn't it your duty as a parent to follow up on their claims? The relationship of Catholics to their bishops is, or at least should be, one of a child to his (or her) spiritual father. So if Catholics make these kinds of accusations, repeatedly and over a period of time, then the bishops are duty-bound to follow up on them, even if they might not be true. I will add that the GSUSA's denials of having a relationship with Planned Parenthood or of taking a stance on sexuality, birth control, and abortion ring hollow in light of the CEO's admission in 2004 that the GSUSA does have relationships with Planned Parenthood.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

It's interestin' how the former Catholic BadenP and da married-to-a-good-fellow-wish-he-weren't-Catholic moosetracker get into this nonsense. People's individual histories do so color their perceptions.

 

From my understanding Cozzens is quite "out there". 60% of priests being gay would be quite an enormous outlier in terms of population. So enormous as to be completely unbelievable without some very strong underlyin' causes, and it's hard to come up with a theory as to what those could be. So this is almost certainly a total BS figure.

 

Yah, I suspect da Vatican Bank has done some money launderin' for the Italian Mafia in years past. Pales in comparison to some of da shenanigans at other banks (JPMorganChase?). Yeh also have to remember that da U.S. State Department these days is labeling as "money launderers" any government or bank that doesn't agree to cooperate with U.S. efforts to eliminate banking privacy worldwide. I'd say good for the Vatican Bank. We have to remember that some money launderin' isn't always bad. It helps dissidents escape from bad governments, channels money to help Tibetan nationalists and other sorts of things. Yeh can imagine that a worldwide church might be engaged in a bit of that.

 

B

 

[shortridge]

Oh, of course they're able to investigate, even to lobby the GSUSA to change its positions.

 

But if you think that the GSUSA should change because of what the bishops think, then you should also open your mind to accepting that the BSA should change because of what GLBT equality advocates think.

 

If equality advocates are an outside pressure group, than the bishops are equally so.

[ScoutNut]

>>"I have been told that if the troop does not use all the money in their account by the end of the year, that they have to turn the excess over to the council.. So they can't save up for a trailer or some large item."

[moosetracker]

Though I understand, it is Sad.. Stuff is GOOD !!

 

Well at least it solves the "Can we go here??" or the "Where can we get the Equipment to do this" and moves you quicker into the "Where do we want to go to do this??" type of questions..

 

 

[moosetracker]

Peregrinator - Probably not so much a need for alignment with the church as a wish to look for a place outside the home to hold the meeting..

 

Having it in your home causes problems with cramped quarters, a feeling you need to be "company" clean on a weekly basis, and normally cleanup is easier at a public place then at your home, where everyone is more likely to chip in to clean up, and it's an easy sweep and return to some protable bins.. At your house, things get pulled from all corners, and they are less likely to get them all back, or vacuum, or clean the dishes used etc..

 

And though it is only through the article, make it sound like the attitude is guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. I would never go in as a parent with the attitude of guilty until proven guilty.. Also a parent I would see as the paster of the church.. Calling in the Bishop, is more like calling in the Police to investigate (or some sort of big guns)..

[Peregrinator]

If equality advocates are an outside pressure group, than the bishops are equally so.

 

I don't think the two are quite the same since (as far as I know) equality advocates aren't chartering/sponsoring troops in either BSA or GSUSA, or if they are, not to the extent that Catholic parishes are.

[Peregrinator]

And though it is only through the article, make it sound like the attitude is guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. I would never go in as a parent with the attitude of guilty until proven guilty.. Also a parent I would see as the paster of the church.. Calling in the Bishop, is more like calling in the Police to investigate (or some sort of big guns).

 

I suppose it depends on the article. Of course certain people have already made up their minds about the Girl Scouts so they'll play up the "investigating" angle. But I think at this stage the bishops are just asking questions. As far as the pastor is concerned, he doesn't have the same authority as the bishop and there are relationships at the diocesan level anyway, not just the parish level.

[BadenP]

Beav

 

The evidence has been documented in print with National magazines, books,legal cases, and tv programs. If you as a Catholic wish to deny the truth that is your perogative, but that was one of many reasons why I left the catholic church and it is high time the laity call their clergy to account for their many and heinous misdeeds or they can continue to swallow the untrue pablum catholic clergy feed you. It truly is sad to me to see so many catholics who can not see or refuse to believe the truth. That 60%+ figure has been documented by the way by the Vatican itself and other reputable sources articles which can be found easily online at your own convienience.

 

Beav, you really disappoint me but I can live with it, as the scripture says "they have eyes but they do not see, ears but they do not hear". Enjoy your own spiritual blindness Beav.

[CalicoPenn]

"From my understanding Cozzens is quite "out there". 60% of priests being gay would be quite an enormous outlier in terms of population. So enormous as to be completely unbelievable without some very strong underlyin' causes, and it's hard to come up with a theory as to what those could be. So this is almost certainly a total BS figure."

 

Not so fast. The percentage may be overstated which is always a risk when dealing with surveys and polls and statistics, but it's quite possible, and quite likely, that there is a rather large outlier of gay priests in comparison to the general population. Is it 60%, probably not, but it's almost certain to be well over the percentage of gay men in the general population (though I would call into question the use of the word "practicing").

 

I've had the opportunity to speak to a number of gay priests in my professional life and have asked them what led them into the priesthood. The most common theme is that they come from a very Catholic family where the boys are expected to get married and have children or become priests. For many of these gay men, who were also raised to hate the sin, love the sinner, joining the priesthood became a very easy way to accept their homosexuality for themselves while making it easy to both hide their sexuality from their families while making them proud by becoming a Priest. If you're a devout Catholic, would you question your 35 year old son's sexuality if he was a priest? I dare say not.

[shortridge]

Peregrinator,

 

You must not have read this thread well, because the point has been made repeatedly that GSUSA does not have COs. The bishops thus have the same standing to GSUSA as the equality advocates have to BSA. Many people here have argued that the equality types should shut the bleep up and go start their own group if they dislike BSA's policies. I could thus say the same about the bishops were I so inclined.

 

Of course, those who make those arguments here won't ever acknowledge this point, because they're too busy getting themselves in a twist over Planned Parenthood.

 

And getting back to something else ... One of the criticisms of GSUSA is that it referred Scouts to the Sierra Club, which apparently supports family planning. The BSA also refers Scouts to the Sierra Club. I fully expect all the bishops' cheerleaders here to thus immediately write Irving and demand a rewrite of all offensive program materials. It's the only intellectually honest thing to do, after all. Assuming y'all are being intellectually honest and not just ideologically blind.

[Peregrinator]

You must not have read this thread well, because the point has been made repeatedly that GSUSA does not have COs. The bishops thus have the same standing to GSUSA as the equality advocates have to BSA. Many people here have argued that the equality types should shut the bleep up and go start their own group if they dislike BSA's policies. I could thus say the same about the bishops were I so inclined.

 

I know the GSUSA doesn't have COs. But when parishes "sponsor" them they do meet on parish property do they not? That is why the Catholic bishops do not have the same standing with respect to the Girl Scouts that equality advocates have with the BSA.

 

I agree that you could say that the Catholic bishops should start their own scouting organization if they don't like the GSUSA's policies. I might even be inclined to agree with you! I'm not sure, at this stage, if the GSUSA is capable of reforming itself in such a way as to be palatable to conservative Catholics.

 

As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I think one could argue that its support for "family planning" is not on the same scale as Planned Parenthood's. Nevertheless, if the BSA is going to take a truly neutral stance on the subject they probably should not have a relationship with the Sierra Club. Take that for what it's worth as I'm an outsider.

[Nike]

When a Girl Scout troop meets somewhere outside of a private home, it is because the leaders have asked if they can use the space. The troop and the property owner may have a very close relationship, especially if many of the troop members are part of the organization or the organization or a person in it has a soft spot for Girl Scouts. Very, very few troop nationally have any kind of financial sponsor.

 

A simple fix for bishops who don't want Girl Scouts meeting in their churches is to simply say that only officially sponsored groups may use church facilities in the diocese. Done.

 

GSUSA doesn't need to reform itself to the satisfaction of the bishops anymore than the bishops need to reform themselves to the satisfaction of the Girl Scouts.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Nike)