How do you get past it?

[scoutpacific]

How do you get past paying for all the training, not being allowed to use their trademarks on your materials, more interest in their fundraisers than the girls, so many paid leaders, such expensive camps, the United Nations affiliation, the dictatorial tone of the council, all the moneys going to council nothing coming back? How do you get past that to use the program so that your beautiful daughter gets the program that J. Lowe intended? How when your son is in the other program can you stand GSUSA? Has the other program even thought of offering something for the brownie aged girl? EVERYBODY says they will go Venture when they are 15. So what about that? Huh? I don't know any parent that wants to invest so much time and effort into a program that they feel is inferior and can't wait to abandon when their child can go to the other program. What say you?

[SemperParatus]

I would not say the girl scout program is inferior, just different. Each has its good points and bad.

 

Around my area, there is no big move on the part of teenage girls to quit girl scouts to move to venturing. There may be a nation-wide problem with large numbers of girls ending their girl scouting at age 14-17, but the overwhelming majority of them are not moving on to an alternate scouting program.

 

Your problems with national leadership can easily be fixed by ignoring them. Their impact on the activities of a troop are nominal, at best. If you can't ignore national/council-wide leadership issues then consider some of the many alternatives available to give your daughter what you think she needs.

[kenk]

I said it before and I'll say it again...

 

My 9 year old daughter, who has been in Girl Scouts from Daisies through Brownies and now in Jr. Girl Scouts, has spent a fair about of time attending her brother's Cub Scout den meetings, pack meetings, and quite a few outings as well. She says she can't wait to leave Girl Scouts and join a Venturing crew.

 

 

[scoutpacific]

Inferior is tons of safety training little to none on how to conduct a troop meeting. Leaving the leader to seek BSA for the "how to's". That is inferior. And training is what a GS leader is always doing. They train more than the national guard. Not that they learn about the girls. Yes, I do think that the GS program is inferior. But I am mad because it shouldn't be.

My GS leader does a bang up job. She works her full-time plus then still finds time to go to all that essential/non training. She pulls ideas from the four winds to make a great program. She paid the $200+ or so to get trained. She complies with council. She works with other leaders to create event opportunities for the whole district. She loves our daughter. But the infrastructure is unsound. Anyone ever think of using "Learning for Life" as a new scout program for girls 1st - 8th?

[Torveaux]

I'm with you scoutpacific.

 

My oldest son is a WebI and my daughter is a Brownie. She may as well be a Juliette as the program is so inferior. She loves to attend Pack functions and camp to family camp with us this summer as well. She has been 'forced' to endure a few den meetings (I am the DL) and enjoys those more than the Brownie meetings.

 

I wish the BSA had a parallel program. I don't want a co-ed Cub Program, but perhaps at the Pack level it would be OK. Envision a Pack with Girls and Boys Dens for each level. The only part of the Brownie program I like is the idea of them getting a patch to wear for each Try-it they complete. The specific Try-its need some work, but I think the visible award system is great. The Cub program is a little weak in that area.

 

I have another boy and girl that are still too young. The only reason our daughters will do Girl Scouts at this point is that there is just not a better alternative available.

[ScoutNut]

 

She paid the $200+ or so to get trained.

Wow! What kind of training is she taking? I have been a Girl Scout Leader for almost 14 years now, & have taken every training I needed/wanted & it has not come even CLOSE to $100 let alone $200. The costs for training in my council are either free or minimal. The most expensive would be the weekend training, leader retreat. That can be rather pricey, but it is for 2 nights at a nice outdoor retreat resort. At that, it is still a lot cheaper than the $210 my BSA Council charges for Woodbadge Training!

 

not being allowed to use their trademarks on your materials,

As long as it is not for commercial use, all you need is your Council's permission to be able to use photos, illustrations, text, & the GS Service Mark. No big deal! You must remember this material is Trademarked & Copyrighted so it is a legal issue. GSUSA does have clipart available on it's National site. The BSA also has restrictions on the use of it's trademarks & logos.

 

more interest in their fundraisers than the girls,

I am really not sure how you come to this conclusion. Like the BSA, GSUSA needs funds to stay in business, both at the council & Troop level. Unlike the BSA, GSUSA has nationalized their main money earning projects (Fall Product & Cookies) & incorporated them into their Scouting Program. The girls not only earn money, but they learn things too.

 

all the moneys going to council nothing coming back,

Once again, I am not sure what you mean here. What monies? If you mean the Fall Product & Cookie Programs, the Troops receive profit from them just as BSA units do from their popcorn sale. GSUSA Councils use their part of the profits in much the same way BSA Councils use theirs.

 

so many paid leaders,

Your GSUSA Council PAYS it's LEADERS!?!?!? Your WIFE is PAID by GSUSA to be a Troop Leader??? I'm obviously in the wrong council! Here, I have been paying THEM for 14 years to be a Leader! The GSUSA Council's in my area are volunteer based, just like the BSA Council's are. Like BSA, they do have some paid staff, but the majority of the folks are volunteers who pay their $10 registration fees to GSUSA National each year, just like we do for BSA.

 

tons of safety training little to none on how to conduct a troop meeting. - They train more than the national guard. Not that they learn about the girls.

Well since you paid over $200, maybe you should have paid more attention during training. The basic training for each level covers Girl Scout program goals, age level characteristics, diversity and inclusion, girl/adult partnership progression, behavior management, conflict resolution and age specific activities. Enrichment training is all about learning new activities and things to take back to your troop. I did not have to "seek BSA for the "how to's"". I already knew "how to" from my GSUSA training & I brought that with me to my boys in BSA.

 

MY beautiful daughter was a youth member of GSUSA for 12 years. Neither she, or any of the other girls in our Troop, were interested in joining a Venturing Crew, although I did ask them. They all earned their Girl Scout Silver & Girl Scout Gold awards. They all became giving, self confident, hard working, wonderful young women who are now in college and are lifetime adult GSUSA members.

 

I agree with Semper, both BSA & GSUSA have their good & bad points. Neither are perfect. I happen to like both. If you don't like GSUSA, or feel that it is not right for your daughter, then you should look into one of the other youth programs that are out there.

 

 

[scoutpacific]

scoutnut-

Wow! I am glad that GSUSA gave you the program that you feel was adequate for your commitment level. Maybe I "should have paid more attention during training". (Did you really say that?) But, I am not a GS leader. And you are rude. And that is too bad, because you come across like you might have real knowledge to share.

 

The point missed is that I would like to find another program that more mirrors my families values. Not as scoutnut might think, I am not trying to mar GSUSA's image. If I lived less than an hour away from council's main office, I might have a different experience. Maybe.

 

Now I could talk about leaders that leave their troop to take a paid position with council; resulting in that troop being disbanded. Or council paid fundraiser trainers. Or paying for fundraising training. Maybe that has come along since scoutnut was involved. I don't know. I don't care. I am not waging a personal attack. I just know my experience is not what I wanted from this program and that I am here seeking a more amiable program for "MY" daughter.

 

I appreciate the responses that I have recieved. I was fishing for information from a bigger pond. Not trying to empty it.

[bbng]

scoutpacific,

 

I expected to be disappointed in the Girl Scout program due to things I've heard, but our daughter wanted to be a Cub Scout since she could talk and tell us so, and when she was invited to Daisies, we decided to give it a try.

 

The leader is awesome. She manages to fit a lot into an hour, holds the girls' interests, and enjoys the time herself. In this past month, the Daisies have gone bowling, taken part in a 9-11 memorial dedication (something the older Girl Scouts helped to landscape), had their investiture and rededication ceremony, and learned about water conservation and being honest and fair. They have learned lots of songs and some prayers, and I was surprised at the focus on God, something I'd been led to believe was not a very important component of Girl Scouts. A meeting starts with the Pledge of Allegiance and Girl Scout Promise, some silly songs and a prayer, and then there crafts, stories, practice of ceremonies, snacks (Scouting without food--no such thing ), and fun ways of learning the points of the Girl Scout Law, ending with more songs and recognition of girls. I'm impressed.

 

The Brownie troop is also very active and big. The Junior troops are smaller and the even older girl (not sure of names) are smaller still. However, all are active, and the service unit overall is very appealing to our family.

 

Since our daughter is involved, at least one of us will be, and I'm waiting on completion of my background check to be receive the training dates. I've looked into this, and I'm not happy that we'll have to pay so much for required training, but we decided to go for it anyway. Trainings look to all start at $35, and compared to the BSA (in our district, it's mostly free, some sessions costing $5), this is a disappointment to me.

 

Camping costs here are similar to Cub Scout costs; council is pretty much an unknown to us so far (though I hear that the leaders get a lot of help from council); the costs for the troop is actually low compared to the Cub costs in the area. To me, from all that I've seen so far, I am willing to invest time in this program for the sake of my daughter. I'm sorry you're so disappointed.

[ScoutNut]

Southpacific, I am sorry you find me rude, it was not my intention. However, I did not miss the point of your posts. What you were doing was NOT simply looking for information or an alternate program. What you were doing was misrepresenting and bashing a program you obviously do not like (GSUSA) and comparing it to a program you do like (BSA).

 

BSA & GSUSA are 2 completely different organizations which are set up completely differently. You simply can not, & should not, compare the 2 programs.

 

As in the BSA, GSUSA councils each run things a bit differently. Some are better than others (just like in the BSA). Also like the BSA, GSUSA Leaders run the gamut from exceptionally good to exceptionally bad. And, like BSA, the program the kids get is only as good as the program the adults deliver. Trashing the entire GSUSA program because of a few bad leaders or questionable council practices is very wrong. You might as well say that the entire BSA Scouting program is "inferior" because some Scoutmasters do not run boy led programs, some councils have been caught padding numbers, & then there is the National professional who was caught with child porn.

 

 

"Now I could talk about leaders that leave their troop to take a paid position with council; resulting in that troop being disbanded."

 

 

Leaders leave their positions all the time. Some get new jobs (paid professional at Scout Council is only 1 type of job), some move, some get burned out. If there is no other parent who is willing to step up and work to keep Scouting alive for their child, then Troops disband, Dens dissolve, Packs disappear, & Units loose their charters. How can you blame GSUSA because every parent in a Troop wanted a free ride and was not willing to work for their child?

 

 

"Or council paid fundraiser trainers. Or paying for fundraising training."

 

 

I will take a leap here and conclude you are talking about Council Sponsored Product Programs. The council folks who train the Troop folks are indeed paid professionals. In most cases they are the full time employees in the Product Program Department. They run council sale programs & many times also work with donations, corporate fundraising (much different than product sale programs), & searching out & writing up of grants. This helps keep the council running & providing program, both now, for your daughter, & in the future for your grandchildren & great grandchildren.

 

Sometimes these paid council folks will have with them at the training, a rep from the company they are getting the product from (ie-Little Brownie Baker). These are Sales Reps and are not paid by the council. They are there to help show the sales program which was developed by their company, the council & the girls in the council (yep, the girls have input into what the incentives are and other areas).

 

As for paying for Fall Product or Cookie Program training, as I stated earlier all councils are different. Perhaps your council charges for this training, however from 1991 through the present, my council has not. BBNG, had stated that their council's training started at $35. My council does not charge for Basic Level training, as a matter of fact many can be taken on-line, from your own home. They do charge for some trainings like first aid & outdoor, but that is mainly because of the supplies & facilities involved. Once again differences between councils.

 

I live OVER 1 hour from our council's main office. If I need something from them I can mail, call, e-mail, or fax. I can purchase patches, awards, etc from other councils or by phone or on-line. It is not always easy, or convenient, but if you have to, you learn to manage. I have been Troop Leader for my daughters Troop for 12 years, worked with our school's GS organizers to plan/run GS Sunday & Lock-in programs for 9 years, worked with our Service Unit Team to run area activities for many years, was Troop Cookie Mgr for 1 Troop for 11 years, 2 Troops for 5 years & for the last 7 years have been the Service Unit Cookie Manager for our area. So, partly because of my "commitment level", & that of other adults in our area who were/are just as committed, WE, with the HELP of our GSUSA council, are giving the girls in our area the best possible Girl Scout program that WE can.

 

You say that you are not a Leader. Why not? Why just complain, but not jump in there in the trenches with your wife and work with her to give the girls a good program? Why leave it all to someone else to do?

 

I too, am very sorry your Girl Scout experience has been so bad. You might try signing your daughter up for Camp Fire, 4-H or Heritage Girls. Maybe one of them will "mirror your families values" better. But, you should understand that like GSUSA & BSA, you will probably only get out of these other programs what you are willing to put into them.

[mrwscouter]

 

My first posting, so please bear with me!

 

I was a prenatal Girl Scout (my mother being a member of Troop 1 in Miami in the 1930's) and I'm a leader trainer in our GS council. However, I have three sons, so I've spent the last twenty years breaking barriers in our local BSA council as well. I'm loyal to both organizations, and will remain active in both.

 

But the suggestion of the last posting, that the parent consider Camp Fire, caught my eye and is something I am equally passionate about. Camp Fire USA is only three weeks younger than Boy Scouting and was started for girls by several of the same people who began Boy Scouting (for example, Ernest Thompson Seton). It became co-ed in the 1970's, and offers a wonderfully balanced program of outdoor skills, citizenship, the arts, technology, health and first aid, and sports. The program is nationally designed and tested, and linked to educational standards, so it's adaptable to classroom use. However, local Councils play a much larger role in adding, adapting, etc., than in either Scouting organization, giving you a great deal more flexibility as a leader. Because it is co-ed, all your children can join, from preschool through age 21. You can create curriculum, you can join as individual members (like Juliettes), you can join as a family in a community family club. You can work the new curriculum (which is incredibly detailed and organized) or you can choose individual activities from the "Bead Book" or you can create your own activities and design your own awards. Your teens can do the traditional curriculum, or they can choose to be issue oriented and deeply involved in advocacy. Children (and adults!) can learn leadership skills outdoors or indoors. Camp Fire USA offers extensive training options, but, at least in our council, they are far more relevant and far less onerous than anything I've taken or taught in either Scout program.

 

Why do Camp Fire INSTEAD of Scouting? Why not IN ADDITION to a Scouting program? For the last 10 years, each time I have led a GS or BSA youth program, I have also registered the youth as a Camp Fire USA unit. This is completely above board, and all the organizations are aware that the youth are registered in both or all three organizations. I file an activity plan with the organization that makes the most sense for a particular activity. For example, if it's going to be a co-ed event for youth under 14 years of age, I go with Camp Fire. If the girls plan an activity that I don't have time to work thru the service unit approval process (normally 3 month in our council!), I go with Camp Fire. If the guys want to earn an award in sewing or child care or any other "Girl Scout" topic, it's available in Camp Fire. I get to use Camp Fire properties, and operate on Camp Fire insurance/safety policies (which, in our Council, allow for tent camping at younger ages, archery at unit events, etc.) The youth are still involved in their respective Scouting programs, advancing and earning awards as they would in any Scouting program, accumulating tenure to support applications to international programs, etc. However, they are also having opportunities to work with youth of both genders, and earning awards in an additional national youth development program. Because Camp Fire is so much smaller than the Scouting programs in our area, they are big fish in a much smaller pond, and have far more opportunities for leadership at the local and even national levels of the organization... real resume boosters for teens! All that for ten bucks a year in our CFUSA Council.

 

These are the significant differences, in my experience, between Scouting programs and CFUSA:

it's co-ed

 

it's smaller and less bureaucratic

 

the highest award, the WoHeLo, requires THREE Eagle/Gold Award level projects

 

learning to use a variety of leadership styles is encouraged

 

setting your own goals and working towards them is encouraged (so that if a set of award requirements doesn't offer you the best opportunity to use your resources and challenge yourself, you are encouraged - not just allowed - to create new requirements for yourself)

 

it's more family oriented

 

units can make exclusionary membership policies, but the national organization doesn't have such policies (though CFUSA does do rigorous background checks to ensure youth safety) So, for example, a particular church group can have a girls only club for its girls' youth program, or a sponsoring church can require its leaders to be members of the church or make particular professions of faith; but another unit in the same council might be co-ed and not require any religious profession of its adult leaders

 

If either Scouting program doesn't fulfill your children's needs, instead of dropping out, I'd suggest you supplement! I'd love to hear from anyone else who has tried something like this!

 

mrwscouter