troop personality dynamic problems

[AlphaCentauri]

I'm assistant troop leader in a Junior troop. Half the girls are in sixth grade, half in fifth.

The problem is the older girls are pretty unmanageable. They just wander off instead of participating in whatever the troop is doing and disrupt everything. Getting them to do kapers involves following them around continually and telling them to do each tiny task. They aren't learning responsibility, and they are a terrible example to the younger girls. In fact, they sometimes pick on girls who don't go along with them.

I can deal with most of them one on one, but as a group they feel the need to show off and ignore the leaders. The parents don't strike me as too able to influence their daughter's behavior nor likely to back up any discipline we might want to institute.

I've seriously considered having a pre-arranged halfway point at our next weekend campout where the goof-offs will be driven back home for their parents to pick up while the rest of the troop continues the weekend -- I suspect we'd only have to do it once if it worked, but I have visions of being stuck waiting in parking lots with kids whose parents are unavailable despite being warned of the possibility of having to pick up their daughters early.

It's a small troop, so if they were no longer in the troop at all we might not have a critical mass to remain a troop at all. Besides, I have no reason to believe my cooperative 10 year olds won't be just as oppositional when they are older. Anyone have any suggestions?

[SagerScout]

I have the same problem and am hoping someone will pop up with an answer.

 

Right now this difficulty has prevented me from starting our fall troop meetings as I am under a lot of stress and I just don't think I can handle their behavior

without losing it myself.

 

[Twocubdad]

Half way my foot! The parent's can drive all the way to the camp or I'd turn the kid over to the local social services department!

 

But you need to be establishing discipline before it gets to that point. If I felt behavior and discipline in the unit were at such a point that I had to pre-arrange pick up points, I'd cancel the outing. Instead, we would be having a meeting with the girls and the parents outlining the behavior I expect from each. They need to understand what the expectations are and what the consequences are for not meeting them. The rules are that you follow instructions, participate with the group and don't bully others. And put them on a short leash. One warning, then we call your parents.

 

What you are describing are girls who are disrupting the program for all the others and making an unplesant, difficult situation for the leaders. That shouldn't be tolerated.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[MomScouter]

Why not dedicate a meeting to having the girls develop a 'Code Of Conduct' as a group? Use a posterboard or something and make sure everyone contributes. Then make sure that they also create consequences for not adhereing to their own code. This would give the girls ownership of the situation.

 

Why are these girls in Girl Scouts if they have contempt for the program? Sounds like another problem beneath the surface. What type of troop government do you use? Do the girls make most of the decisions about activities, etc?

[buffalo2]

Mom you're on the right track - while I know nothing about Girl Scouts, sounds like those older ones need something to do. Not as a punishment, but in keeping with their enhanced skills and abilities. And aren't they running the Troop???

In our BSA Troop we occasionally sort out the older ones (we call it Venture PATROL) and hang it out a little further, reminding these guys that they have to work with the younger kids as well.

Works kinda, but puts an additional load on the adults. I've seen those older problem children become outstanding leaders in the Troop, but sometimes its a rocky road!

Your mileage may vary

 

[Twocubdad]

Age-wise, these girls are essentially a Webelos den. I don't know anything about how the GSs run their troops either, but boys this age aren't ready to take full responsibility for discipline the way a Boy Scout Troop or especially a Venture patrol or crew does.

 

The suggestion of letting them draw up their own code of conduct is a good one. But once you have that document, you still need to make sure that they AND THEIR PARENTS understand that it will be enforced and what the consequences are for violating it.

[MomScouter]

Girl Scouts is progressively girl run, they are given more responsibility the older they get. I have a Jr. troop of 4th, 5th, and 6th graders, and they certainly are old enough to come up with some rules and consequences, with some leader help. One of the consequences would probably be to call a parent after so many offenses. This would not work perfectly at first, and the adults would most likely have to 'remind' them from time to time about their rules, but gradually it would become more girl enforced.

 

Another tactic we use is to make sure that the younger girls and the older girls are mixed together in patrols or for activities. It sounds like your 6th graders are banding together to reinforce bad behavior.

 

 

[AlphaCentauri]

I guess I should say that part of the problem is that one of the worst kids is the troop leader's youngest daughter. Her mom can't do much with her, tho she is in therapy. We can't exactly hold the other girls to a higher standard. Her mother is a real asset to the troop otherwise, but I don't imagine she'd stay with the troop if her girls were all out of scouting.

 

Anyway, the worst behavior is the passive aggressive stuff that doesn't make much of a story when you tell the parents about it later. If they were "doing" things we could tell their parents, but it's the doing the least they can get away with and doing that grudgingly that is making things not fun for everyone else.

[ScoutNut]

Twocubdad is right, I would cancel the campout. Then I would explain exactly WHY it was cancled to the girls. Do some cooporative, team building games with your group. Let them know that if things don't improve they will not be doing a whole lot of activities.

 

A code of conduct, put together by the girls, is a good idea. I would also have the parents sign and return a copy to you so you know they read and understand them. If the girls are not doing much towards running the troop that could be a problem too. 6th graders are able to take on more responsibility for their own troop. Make sure they do.

 

Finally, your biggest problem could be mostly hormonal. 6th grade is a time of change for girls. Some get EXTREMELY weird and confrontational! You need to hang in there and make sure rules are enforced. This should pass, eventually. Just think how proud you will be in 3 or 4 years when they are in high school and all of the leadership and confidence starts to shine thru!

[AnneinMpls]

"I'm assistant troop leader in a Junior troop. Half the girls are in sixth grade, half in fifth."

 

There's a lot of information you've packed into your post, so I'll try going at it, point by point...

Anytime you have a "half this half that" situation you have what is called a dichotomy. Human dichotomies are inherently conflictual as each half is unconsciously trying to define itself as "not the other half" - if one half of the group is compliant, active, taking part in discussions, your other half will take their perceptions of that group and pull towards the opposite pole. (This is partly why racial conflicts tend to be strongest when there are predominantly two main cultures - more diversely multicultural communities tend to have lower rates of conflict. Yup - it's the social scientist in me talking again!)

 

"The problem is the older girls are pretty unmanageable. They just wander off instead of participating in whatever the troop is doing and disrupt everything."

 

Yup - it sounds to me as though they have defined themselves - their group - as the ones who *don't* participate - they may even see it as "babyish" to act like those 5th graders... Ask em...they might tell you so straight up.

 

"Getting them to do kapers involves following them around continually and telling them to do each tiny task."

 

Dang that's annoying! Ineffectual - wears you guys down as the leaders - makes for meetings that are a big headache. Not what you signed up for, for sure.

 

"They aren't learning responsibility, and they are a terrible example to the younger girls."

 

Problems are owned by whoever perceives them - you see the two problems that they aren't learning responsibility and are not serving as an example to the younger girls. (I'm not saying it's only a problem to you! I agree these are serious problems, but I'll bet these girls are not going home nights crying into their pillows over how they aren't learning how to be responsible!! I'm also guessing these are not the problems perceived by your younger group, either - but you'll have to ask them what problems they see - ask the older ones too! The problems they see are the ones they'll be able to work on.)

 

"In fact, they sometimes pick on girls who don't go along with them."

 

I think this is your most telling statement of how these older ones have defined themselves. A definition becomes a rule for a group, and they're now enforcing this rule!

 

"I can deal with most of them one on one, but as a group they feel the need to show off and ignore the leaders."

 

Yha- the Gestalt of the group is way different from the sum of its parts - individually, you surely have some fabulous girls there. Within their group's definition, they are a seething pit of malcontents. Continue to develop your relationships with them one-on-one in the meantime while you explore solutions to the bigger problems.

 

"The parents don't strike me as too able to influence their daughter's behavior nor likely to back up any discipline we might want to institute."

 

Yup, you can't fix the parents, you can only fix what is within your control (and the girls aren't yours to fix either! Only the leadership of the troop and the structure of the group dynamics come under the heading of things you can control.)

 

"I've seriously considered having a pre-arranged halfway point at our next weekend campout where the goof-offs will be driven back home for their parents to pick up while the rest of the troop continues the weekend -- I suspect we'd only have to do it once if it worked, but I have visions of being stuck waiting in parking lots with kids whose parents are unavailable despite being warned of the possibility of having to pick up their daughters early."

 

I'd only suggest this tactic on an individual basis - since you have a whole group that is acting up, this plan is pretty unworkable. Also chancy -sending one girl home *might* make the rest of em shape up, but is just as likely to fling them all into an even worse attitude. Better to look for solutions that work at the group level.

 

"It's a small troop, so if they were no longer in the troop at all we might not have a critical mass to remain a troop at all."

 

Do you want them to remain in the troop for numbers or.....? It's important to clarify what your motivations are - they'll help key you in to some good solutions. If numbers are your motivation, then all you need to do is cut them from the troop and recruit a new batch "I want to keep them in the troop because ________________."

 

"Besides, I have no reason to believe my cooperative 10 year olds won't be just as oppositional when they are older."

 

Yup, it's a big unknown - all we can do is give the best we have to offer.

 

I have some more ideas, but I'd like to hear more from you first - you might be arriving at better solutions than I could suggest.

Peace to you and yours,

Anne in Mpls

 

[AlphaCentauri]

Thanks -- we have our first full troop meeting of the fall this week, with parents attending, so we'll be trying some new things, including patrols, tho there may be only 2 or 3 girls in each. We'll see what works.

[AnneinMpls]

Hi Alpha - have been wondering how things are going with your troop this year?

Blessings!

Anne in Mpls

[AlphaCentauri]

Well....

 

The first meeting the girls ran their own meeting to set up an agenda for the year. They worked hard and did a good job. But the troop leader's daughter chaired it, so she couldn't undermine anyone else. She's a good leader but not much of a follower.

 

The second meeting, the girls who were assigned to lead an activity did a good job. But the other girls got distracted by stuff going on outside the room and ignored the activity for a short while (the adults had to redirect them to the appropriate activity). They all finished the project and (for them) were pretty focused. But the girls who were leading it got upset about being dissed while they were leading and both quit, as did another girl who was their friend. The mother of one sent us an email that she was going to look for a troop with more supervision.

 

The third meeting they worked on the code of conduct and did well. Since then, the girls have planned and led activities. We're down to a pretty small number, mostly the 5th graders, since the 6th graders are absent for activities more. A lot of these kids have ADD and of course aren't on their medication for an evening meeting. My inclination is to let them run their activity, and when they run off to do someething else, give them a few minutes to blow off steam, then direct them back to the activity. I also sometimes sneak in badge requirements by asking questions about topics that gets a serious discussion going even while they are fooling around.

 

My son has ADD, so I guess I don't expect much, but if they are learning something and having fun, and everyone feels included in the social activities and no one is getting hurt, I'm happy, even if they decide to paint their faces with cookie dough. Needless to say, I can imagine parents of girls with age-appropriate attention spans are a bit horrified.

[ScoutNut]

Alpha - Have you considered Sat or Sun meetings so the ADD girls would be more attentive? Make sure that the girls leading the activites do their best to keep them short, sweet, to the point, and lots of hands on. Maybe you could get them talking about ADD and their experiences. It would help the girls who aren't ADD to understand.