Safe Swim Defense - Safety Afloat

[Eagle74]

Does anyone know - dsteele this might be a good question for you - if BSA has ever considered allowing Red Cross certified lifeguards to "challenge" the practical tests for BSA Lifeguard and only have to go through the BSA-specific parts of the course? In other words if you already have Red Cross certification, and given you can satisfactorily demonstrate the lifeguarding skill set, you would only need to go through Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, and any other BSA specific portions without having to spend time "redoing" the entire class.

 

My older son, who is now an Asst. Scoutmaster assisting me with first-year patrols has the Red Cross certification. He would like to also have the BSA certification if for no other reason than just to have it, but is not about to go through another five days worth of all aspects of lifeguarding.

 

Also, I fully agree that the G2SS outlines minimum guidelines, which is not the best position to operate from.

 

One of my contentions is that a non-swimmer in a canoe, on any moving water and especially swift water, may not adequately protected by a lifeguard trained in a pool or lake. I have seen several certified lifeguards get into serious trouble in moving water where they ended up struggling to save themselves without having to worry about additionally saving a non-swimmer.

[LauraT7]

it was late - my mind was foggy....

 

The older son, "John" is a red cross lifeguard and has worked at our city pool since he was 16. He also has his BSA lifeguard certification, Swimming, life saving, first aid, canoing, whitewater, sailing, motorboating and rowing badges. He went to a local Jr college and was available to lifeguard for the troop at local events in local swimming pools - where there were also Safety Afloat and Safe Swim certified adults, sometimes parents with Red Cross Cert. and adults who had medical and nursing training. In town - we really had it covered! LOL!

 

Problem is - many of these non- BSA trained adults don't camp - and a river in a canoe is more dangerous than a city pool.

 

All of the 'camping' Adults have taken Safe Swim and Safety Afloat - all are strong swimmers, and most have canoeing experience.

 

the younger brother - "Joe" is a mature & responsible 14 yr old boy who also had many of the swimming and boating badges, lots of troop and family canoe experiences, and he just earned his BSA lifeguard at summer camp last week.

 

the point i was trying to make is that despite their training - I would never want to put the sole responsibility of the safety of the whole troop on the shoulders of a boy. Even if he has the training and leads the outing WITH that training - I would want adults along to support him. Adults with as much training as they are capable of.

 

(i would LOVE to get BSA lifeguard certified - but I simply don't have the stamina and athletic ability for it - Also, as one of the few adults who DO go to camp - i can't spend my entire week working on it - I have to be available for all the boys in my troop)

 

My fear is for the boy doing the lifeguarding. If an accident SHOULD happen, and he is not able to stop it or rescue the person - especially a non-swimmer boy - I don't want him to have that responsibility of an injured or killed troopmate on his conscience.

 

with boys who ARE swimmers, and have some experience in dumping a canoe and canoing skills - hopefully they are not as prone to danger and panic as a non-swimmer.

 

It always surprizes me that some parents want their boy to 'participate' in everything, and even though THEY don't go with their untrained child - they expect the other troop boys and adults to provide protection for them. They think I should put my son or some other swimmer boy in a canoe with theirs to protect their beginner. When I think of some of the impulsive, beginner new scouts we have in our troop and others - I think we have to set the bar for participation higher than the BSA minimum.

 

Is that clearer?

[Bob White]

Eagle74

The Red Cross water rescue programs and the BSA Swimming MB and BSA Lifeguard all had one thing in common. A scouter from upstate New york named Albert Cahill. Al spearheaded the development of both programs. According to Al (he used to come to my Roundtables each year) The BSA one was developed first and Red Cross was based on the BSA program. He feels that the BSA program is the more demanding but they are very close.

 

This year the BSA and Red Cross signed a letter of cooperation that will benefit both organizations. The plan is to get more adults certified as Red Cross instructors and to more closely associate our two program first aid and rescue training.

 

I get a kick that some posters dsee G2SS as the very minimum precaustions we should take, while others see it as to restrictive and difficult to follow. If I had to trust my son's safety to one group I know which one I'd pick.

 

Bob White

[Eagle74]

Thanks for the info, BW. I have read several articles about Mr. Cahill or mentioning his name; a dedicated and most respectable man.

[johnmbowen]

What I want to add to this discussion at this late date is that being a BSA Lifeguard, or for that matter a pool lifeguard, Red Cross Certified or not does not make anyone, adult or kid capable of any rescue in swift or even moving water.

 

The Safety Afloat and Swim Safety are just a set of rules that we have to follow to have the BSA insurance work for you. They are generally good rules, except for the paltry requirement of a BSA lifeguard on board. In canoeing, rafting or kayaking, this is worse than useless, as it might cause the lifeguard to rush into a situation he is not trained for and therefore cause another casualty. Take a class in swiftwater rescue like the original guy...he indeed is the guy who will save your behind...BSA just doesn't know. Same with Climb on Safely...get real training before taking Scouts climbing.

[AnneinMpls]

Hi all - I'm really enjoying learning more about the BSA lifeguard certification.

 

Also, find myself comparing and contrasting G2SS policy with GSUSA's Safety-Wise policy which I've been having to comb through these last couple weeks.

 

No lifeguards on duty up at Itasca State Park where we're headed for the weekend, so I signed up to get my Red Cross Lifeguard training (trained lifeguard for *all* swimming required by GSUSA) - wow, things have changed a !!lot!!! since I got my RC Advanced Lifesaving 20 years ago. (BTW, to share the good news, I passed all my tests today - woohoo!!!!!! Really didn't think I'd be able to do it at 35 and asthmatic lungs and not having exercised too much in the last few years - but amazingly a lot has stuck with me - just gotta stop trying to "chin em and pit em" - we don't do that anymore )

Safety-Wise also requires that we have a full complement of rescue equipment on hand, and all they have there is a ring bouy. Gah....anybody know if it's proper to go ahead and make my own backboard?? Those things are expensive! So are rescue tubes....sheesh. Our Brownies already voted to pay the $180 out of their own funds for my training. Is there a way to borrow this equipment or get it on the cheap??

Also, for the number of girls we have going, I'm required to also use two "watchers" and it's "recommended" that they be trained in Basic Water Rescue - ok, so...I downloaded the Basic Water Rescue course guide off the 'net, and I'm taking my watchers out to a beach next week to practice some basic reaching assists, and lots and lots of emphasis on what NOT to do, etc - it won't be certification but as it's a recommendation and not a requirement, this is the best idea I've come up with..

Still want to get an actual Small Craft Safety course in, but I'm using my canoeing instruction training from way back when at CIT as my "documented experience".

[LauraT7]

believe it or not - they now have Red Cross first aid, CPR and Lifeguarding courses ONLINE! -

 

of course, for the lifeguarding course, you have to make and appointment somewhere to go for the practical test, but all the paperwork can be done at home. i just got my CPR online - there are even online courses that will send you a practice dummy as part of the course to use at home!

 

Here's some links, if anyone is interested -

 

http://www.aquatictraining.com/lifeguard.cfm

 

http://www.cprtoday.com/course_cost_h.php

 

 

[dsteele]

If I may address a point brought up in the original post on this thread -- the requirement of a BSA Lifeguard on canoe trips, etc.

 

No, it isn't an urban legend -- it's just old information. For a brief period in or around 1992, the BSA did make it a requirement that if a troop was going to be in or on the water, they had to have a BSA Lifeguard.

 

Someone implied that "Strongly recommends" opens the BSA up to be able to say "I told you so" at a later date if something bad happens.

 

Actually, when the requirement was changed to a strong recommendation, I asked the National Director of Boy Scouting at a professional conference why it was changed. I believed him becaue I know how many of my troops, being unable to qualify, simply ignored the rule and went anyway. The rule was actually changed to protect troops and the BSA. If the BSA had a written requirement that said, as it did for that brief period, that you must have a BSA lifeguard and the troop ignored it -- the troop would be hung out to dry by the law.

 

DS