Safe Swim Defense - Safety Afloat

[Eagle74]

Maybe this should go under the older myth debunking thread but here goes (questions at end):

 

I had been led to believe, falsely as far as I can tell, that a BSA certified lifeguard was required for swimming activities and for a non-swimmer to be in a canoe. I had been told this a number of times, in various classes and by a variety of instructors.

 

Finally, took another thorough look at the Guide to Safe Scouting Aquatics Safety section because I kept telling them I didn't remember reading it that way - or at least didn't interpret it that way.

 

Safe Swim Defense section 1, only "strongly recommends" , but does not require a BSA lifeguard. Section 4 simply calls for designating "capable swimmers" as lifeguards.

 

Safety Afloat section 1 again "strongly recommends", but does not require a BSA lifeguard. Section 3 states that a non-swimmer may ride as a passenger (canoe, raft, sailboat) with "an adult certified as a lifeguard or lifesaver by a recognized agency."

 

Fully understanding that "strongly recommends" leaves the door wide open for BSA to say "we told you so" if something happens and also fully understanding that the BSA lifeguard training includes things that other programs do not:

 

1. What is a "lifesaver"? I let my Red Cross Lifeguard certification expire awhile ago and my BSA Lifeguard certification expire even longer ago, but I am a Certified Emergency Rescue Technician trained in all types of water rescue (still water, swift water, low-head dams, using powered boats, non-powered boats, shore based rescues, in-water rescues, etc) - in other words, if the BSA lifeguard gets into trouble I'm one of the guys that's going to save his behind. Does this qualify as a "lifesaver"?

 

2. What is a "recognized agency"? Who decides?

 

3. Am I missing something? Is there additional information somewhere else that I am not aware of?

 

As far as I can tell, certification as a BSA lifeguard is recommended, but not required. Any insight that can be provided by the experience and knowledge I know can be found in the forum would be appreciated.

 

 

[DRussell1187Eagle]

Eagle74 -

You are correct to consult the G2SS. That publication is the one that sets out the guidelines for leaders to follow. Unfortunately, also, you are correct in reading that a BSA Lifeguard IS NOT required for any UNIT Aquatics activity. I say unfortunately because a few years ago when the BSA decided to change that rule, it meant that ANY adult who had sat through the one hour Safe Swim Defense or Safety Afloat class was "qualified" to lead his/her unit in ANY aquatics activity.(!!!!) The adult must also "be proficient" (my words here)for the type of activity. As for the "strong swimmers" - they do not even have to be adults!!!

To answer your questions:

1. As far as I know (which is by no means complete knowledge)a Lifeguard is the person certified and trained in ALL aspects of water safety. This means everything from cleaning the pool, pre-surveying the swim areas, and programs all the way to the actual rescue techniques. Most Lifeguard classes are AT LEAST 30 hours long. A Lifesaver is a person who has received "some" basic water safety training (as in the case of the aforementioned adult). Not much of a comparison as far as I am concerned. I would imagine that your training certainly qualifies you as at least a Lifesaver (LOL) especially if you're the one to save MY butt!! BTW, who is YOUR certifying agency??

2. The recognized agencies are the Red Cross and the BSA. I believe that BSA National used to recognize a YMCA Lifeguard, but now almost all YMCA's use Red Cross, so there are hardly any YMCA Lifeguards left. The BSA National Safety (?) Committee is the group that decides. They are in a process now of combining the Red Cross and BSA programs; all councils were sent information about this in June.

3. No - You are reading the information correctly - including the between-the-lines information.

My own opinions here: The tradition that most of us here in FL follow is that WHEN leaders and Lifeguards follow the BSA rules for Aquatics, you don't have accidents. It's only when you have a case where someone decides that they know better or just gets lazy and DOES NOT follow the rules, that we have accidents. When this change of rules came out a few years ago, most councils adopted it without even blinking. My council, THANK GOD, did not. They chose to keep a certified Lifeguard and I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't agree.

Sorry this was so long, but this is a complicated area and many, many adults do not have the correct information, nor are there many people in (most) councils who can accurately answer.

 

Good Luck!

Charles

[NWScouter]

My understanding you only need a certified lifeguard in the canoe, raft and sailboat. Your certification needs to be current.

[nldscout]

You don't need a lifeguard for any BSA Aquatics activities that a troop runs. If you read the G2SS it may recommend but does not require.

 

Now some may ask, why? I beleive it is because there is a lack of certified lifeguards and lifeguard training. The only place around here for a youth to get BSA lifeguard is to go take it at summer camp and tie up your whole week, it takes all 5 days of camp. Not many want to do that.

 

And the local Red Cross ib our area doesn't do it but once a year unless you pay big bucks for a separate instructor.

 

We do all kinds of Canoe and rafting trips here and don't currently have any lifeguards. A safety trained leader and designated rescue people are just as capable

 

 

[NWScouter]

I just looked at my last post. I forgot to add 'with a non-swimmer and beginner' after sailboat. Sorry.

[dsteele]

Perhaps I can illuminate the origin of the "myth."

 

It isn't one. It's simply old information. In the mid-to-late nineties, the BSA changed the requirement for any on-the-water activity to be that a troop couldn't do it without a BSA Lifeguard.

 

Most troops ignored the rule. National decided to change "must" to "should" to help protect it's members.

 

Just a free "two bits" from your friendly neighborhood e-professional scouter.

 

DS

[ren-ren]

Just a small comment on the G2SS, remember that these are the MINNIMUM requirements. When dealing with Safety [in scouts, at home, or at work] exceeding the minimum requirements is basically a no brainer. Its better for a scout to go home unhappy and in one piece, than to not go home again.

[Bob White]

"You don't need a lifeguard for any BSA Aquatics activities that a troop runs. If you read the G2SS it may recommend but does not require."

 

The G2ss says in bold letters, which means unalterable policy...

"A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult "swimmer" or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult certified as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency."

 

Nothing in the G2ss exempts units from this policy.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

"A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult "swimmer" or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult certified as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency."

 

Does this apply to commercial water transportation? Let's suppsose that my Scouts and I are going to take a water taxi. Neither I nor my assistant leader are swimmers. Do we need to ask the captain of the water taxi if he is a certified swimmer or lifeguard?

 

What if we go out on a day excursion on a destroyer? Do we need to verify that there is a life guard on board?

 

 

[Bob White]

Not unless you can't tell the difference between a water taxi or destroyer, and a canoe, raft or sailboat as identified in the sentence above.

 

Bob White

[LauraT7]

One of our boys got his BSA lifeguard at camp this summer. His family are avid canoe campers, his older brother, an Eagle scout with our troop, has been a lifegard and acted as our BSA lifeguard for the past couple of years at the HS pool swimming events. We are really glad this boy, who is only 14, is taking this training, too - as his brother is now off at college.

 

However.

 

If he were my son, despite his training, I would not want to make him the totaly responsible "lifeguard" on a canoe trip. would you?

 

My son, age 13, IS a strong swimmer and canoer. If he were in a canoe that tipped in a river, and was conscious - i am sure he would handle himself well. but i would not want to put the responsibility of another child - a non-swimmer or beginner on his shoulders.

 

We have a non-swimmer in our troop who is mentally handicapped - he knows how to swim but is afraid to let go of the side or not touch bottom. But he is 15 and bigger than either of the boys mentioned above. If he tipped in a canoe, he might very well panic and endanger them all.

 

I would not want to face losing or hurting ANY of the boys, or explaining an accident to their parents, because we had to push the envelope of the rules to make the trip happen. I'd rather be the meanie who said 'no' to a trip with an unaceptable risk.

 

Our trips are limited to those who have passed their BSA swimmer test, & have some of the following: experience canoing with the troop on flatwater demonstrating knowledge of rules and safety, & have their swimming, canoeing or lifesaving badges. WE STRONGLY encourage a parent to accompany a boy with little experience, even if he is a swimmer.

 

We get parents all the time who want their boys to go on canoe trips, but if the boy can't pass the swimming test and the parents don't want to go on the trips with them, then they can't go.

[Bob White]

Laura7,

 

Having been a lifeguard doesn't count and neither does pretending to be a BSA Lifeguard. He either is a certified life guard or he isn't.

 

The boating requiremnet does not accept "used to" be or "acts as" it says "IS".

 

Even in troop swims the "acting lifeguards" are required to act in tandem in case of a rescue situation. One stays on the shore and feeds a rescue line tied to the other "lifeguard" as he swims to the victim. No acting lifeguard is to attempt a person to person rescue without being attached to a rescue line.

 

Bob White

[DRussell1187Eagle]

Laura-

The situation that you mention for your unit is one that we caution leaders and under-18 Lifeguards on when we train them.

This is where you and the other adult leaders should do two things: 1. Find a way to make yourself trust that this boy has been SUFFICIENTLY trained to handle this responsibility. If you need to go back to the counselor that trained him and have a talk, do so. The bottom line here is that YOU are the adult in charge for ALL unit activities and you're the one who must be sure that everyone stays safe. Is this boy mature enough to handle the lifeguarding situations that he will be up against? Even if the answer is yes, it has to be remembered that he is still not yet an adult - there will be things that he can't understand and will not be able to predict. This is the main reason that the first point in both the SSD and SA is Qualified Adult Supervision. 2. The other thing I would recommend is to have a good long talk with this young man. He now holds a very special position in your troop; and it's one that could hurt or really, really help your troop program. Ask almost any troop that lives in FL or on the coasts - a troop without a Lifeguard is in sad shape!! He needs to know that the adults trust him to do the job he's been trained to do, but he also need to know that he walks a fine line with the level of responsibility. If the adults in charge do not trust him to handle being in charge of the Aquatics activities, he will figure it out soon enough and will quickly come to resent his position. The best thing is that you all establish clear lines of communication about this issue and deal with it BEFOREHAND.

The other part is that you shouldn't be in a position where he is the only L/G anyway. I believe there is a space on the tour permits that asks for the names of the TWO people in charge of the aquatics activities. The second person should at least be current in SSD or SA; and you should have a ratio of 1 to 10 for any group larger than 10. (Supervision to Swimmer)

 

BobWhite-

I believe you misunderstood what Laura meant by "acted as". They way I understood it, she didn't mean that he wasn't certified, just that he was filling the position.

The other part about the rescues is only partially true. Lifeguards ARE to act in tandem, however there is nothing that I have ever seen/read/taught that says that you have to use the line and tender method. It is not taught to the lifeguards that to attempt a person to person rescue, you have to be attached to a rescue line. There are too many other variables that come into play here, and many waterfronts are so large that this is just not feasible to do. What we DO teach them is that person to person is the last method to use and that you "Go with support". I'm sure the man who had a scout drown right next to him yesterday at their scout camp (FL) would have been perfectly happy if he had been able to do anything for him, regardless if he was attached to a line or not. I guess my point here is that there are few rescues that are "textbook". You do what you have been trained to do as well as you can in an emergency situation and hope for the best.

 

I'm not trying to preach here, but I wanted to offer the best advice I could. I'm a Lifeguard Counselor for the BSA and Lifeguard Trainer for the Red Cross. Good Luck to both of you.

 

Charles

[firstpusk]

Bob you are on the money here. Canoeing safety relies on the capability of all participants. That is why the certified lifeguard requirement is in GSS for those that have not passed the swimmer's test.

 

In situations on rivers, even those without white water, there are tricky currents, strainers, bridge peirs, deadheads and your own swamped canoe that you must keep in mind. The wise leader also insists on the capability of effective self rescue for all scouts and scouters participating.

 

As someone who has been certified as a BSA lifeguard for nearly all of my leadership tenure, it is important to understand your limitations. If you are trying to make a swimming rescue without proper training, you have already made a series of mistakes and/or misjudgements that could endanger yourself and others. If you are trying to attempt the same thing having been trained it is still a very dangerous undertaking.

 

I am a strong swimmer and have been well trained and carry the requisite certifications. Yet, any person I have had in my canoe has been trained to take care of themselves before they get on the water. I don't care if they already are a swimmer. This way, I am able to be prepared to help all the other participants.

[Bob White]

drussell87Eagle

Laura said he used to be a lifeguard and acted as a BSA lifeguard. She did not say he is a life guard or that he is a BSA certified Lifeguard. So I presume he is neither but because of his experience "acted as a lifeguard as Laura stated.

 

As far as the life line please review this passage from the BSA's guide to Safe Scouting.

 

"For unit swims in areas where lifeguards are not provided by others, the supervisor should designate two capable swimmers as lifeguards. Station them ashore, equipped with a lifeline (a 100-foot length of 3/8-inch nylon cord). In an emergency, one carries out the line; the other feeds it out from shore, then pulls in his partner and the person being helped."

 

Hope this helps,

Bob White