Changing the Order

[John-in-KC]

What papadaddy said.

[SR540Beaver]

SP,

 

Of course you can have it both ways. Other than being a 1st Class scout, the same qualifications for a boy applies to an adult. The main difference is that a boy is elected by his peers and an adult is nominated by the committee. But the same qualities are sought. Just like in a troop, adults are their to support, mentor and lead by example. Do we adults have fun on troop campouts? Heck yeah! But our purpose in the troop is totally different from the boy's purpose in the troop. And so is it in OA. Even though adults are selected for the purpose of supporting, mentoring and leading by example, it is an honor that you are seen as a service minded person who is in it for the boys and therefore nominated for membership. While still an honor, the OA simply defines the role of the adult in the big picture. It's still OK to have fun and be an adult Arrowman.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello SR540,

 

 

Sorry, but it's unrealistic to say you can have it both ways. You guys want to carp and complain that adults are being nominated as an honor, and indeed that appears to be the standard:

 

>

 

 

But to me that is an unfriendly and grasping basis for membership. If it appeals to some, they are welcome to it.

 

But it creates a fundamental double standard for membership between those inducted as youth and those inducted as adults.

 

You guys have underlined that double standard in this thread and promoted it. Fine --- but live with the consequences of it, which you obviously do not wish to do.

[SR540Beaver]

SP,

 

Is there a double standard in your troop?

 

Are you in a patrol? Do you run for office? Do you plan the campouts or the menus? Do you vote in the PLC? Do you set up your tent in a patrol's campsite? Do you do merit badges, Scoutmaster conferences or BOR's? What are you planning on doing for your Eagle project?

 

Or as an adult, do you support and facilitate all of those things for the boys......while getting to participate and enjoy campouts along side them.

 

Is there a double standard or are you getting to have it both ways? The OA is no different than a troop. Boys are boys, adults are adults. Their purpose and actions are different depending on their age. You are part of the troop and you get to partake in the program of the troop, but your function there is far different that the youth's.

 

Do you complain or get bent out of shape that the troop wants you to teach a MB, handle a fundraiser, go to summer camp or drive boys on a campout? I doubt it. That is why I don't get your whole adverse reaction to the same expectation in the OA. We are the adults. Our job is support of the youth program. We should be honored that we are considered to be the kind of servant who would go beyond the troop level to support other aspects and programs in scouting. But it isn't required, it has to come from the heart.

[John-in-KC]

Beav,

 

I am speaking as an elected youth member of our Order. Granted, that was almost 42 years ago, but I am an elected youth member. SP is right. We are operating on a double standard between the terminology of youth election criteria and adult selection criteria.

 

For youth members, this is an honor.

 

For adult members, it's an easy way to obtain seats and seatbelts for the youth.

 

The unit serving Scouter in the Order is typically there to drive youth to events. Remember youth member Scouts aren't allowed by G2SS to drive themselves to events.

 

Honor can kick in, if the Scouter is engaged by the chapter/lodge, works long and hard enough, and is someday called to the Vigil. That is an honor, youth or adult alike.

 

We make the adult go through the identical Ordeal as the youth. Even so, we don't call the adults' selection an honor. It's a matter of pragmatism: Can he/she support the intentions of the Order?

 

We have a problem.

 

Of course, we have a second problem: We have youth members of BSA who are unconditionally disenfranchised from the Order: Youth member female Venturers. Some day, that's going to bite us on the fourth point of contact, hard.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello John,

 

 

Interesting point. Presumably female Scout Executives and District Executives are eligible for OA membership. And female adult Scout leaders.

 

Just no female youth members.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

John,

 

I stand by what I said earlier. If there is a double standard in OA, then there is a double standard in all BSA programs. Whether it be Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturing, etc., we are not participants in the youth program. We may do program elements right beside them and backpack or camp or go to Jambo, but we are there for a totally different reason than the youth are and we should all understand that. OA is asking no more of an adult than a troop is. I can't tell you how many times I've seen new parents counseled in a troop that they can't camp in the patrol, they can't cook for the boys, that they can't do little Johnny's advancement work for him, etc. They aren't scouts, they are registered adults who support the youth program. For me, this is a no brainer. Look, I go to Conclave and Fall Fellowship and the Lodge Banquet and I have as much fun or more than the boys do, but at the end of the day, I'm there to support them.....and that often means giving them a ride. I don't view my role as an ASM any different than I do my role as a CA. I'm there to lead by example and provide support so the boys can squeeze every last drop out of whatever they do. If adults find offence in being asked to serve and support the youth in any aspect of scouting, that is up to them. For me, that is what I've always understood my role to be.

 

As far as girls in OA, I'm sure it will come someday. I have no strong feelings either way. My take on it is that the OA is a unique program of Boy Scouts and not Venturing. The BSA is a broad organization with a number of different programs that serve different demographics. I look at it like a university with football, baseball, track, basketball and wrestling. You are all sports programs of the same school, but just because you play basketball doesn't mean you can be on the football team and doesn't make you elligible for the Heisman trophy. If you want Venturing girls to be able to be in OA, then you need to merge the two programs into one and allow girls to be Eagle Scouts as well and Boy Scouts to shoot pistols. Venturing was designed for a specific purpose and it has it's own unique program elements from scouting. Two different programs entirely. One has an honor organization and one doesn't. There is nothing stopping Venturing from developing their own.

[emb021]

"Interesting point. Presumably female Scout Executives and District Executives are eligible for OA membership. And female adult Scout leaders.

 

Just no female youth members. "

 

Interesting point?

 

Not really. To be eligible as a youth to join the OA (ie under 21) you must have First Class. This bars all female venturers.

 

There is no problem with adult female scouters being selected. This was a chance that occurred about 20 years or so ago, when National opened the last 6 adult positions to females, and all the lodges in my area have many female arrowmen, many of whom are Vigil. Heck, my lodge has a female adviser and she's been doing a great job IMO. She was just tapped out for Vigil.

 

 

As to this ongoing 'discussion', I will say that what SR540 is saying is how I view things as well. The reason for youth and adults to be in the Order are different. Adults need to understand it. Being selected as an adult should NOT be confused with getting Silver Beaver or the like. Most of us do a LOT more then drive kids to event, but what we do is support the youth in their program. Which is why we are advisers.

 

[SR540Beaver]

emb021,

 

Our Lodge Adviser often points out when talking to adults, "while there are some of us with a position patch that says adviser on it, all adults in OA are advisers."

[John-in-KC]

Beav,

 

emb brought a point to the fore. We do have honors and recognition for adults in Scouting. It cannot be fully altruistic "We are only here to serve the youth." That doesn't work in any volunteer supported organization. We're human. We have egos.

 

Of course, the honor that is youth membership is open to debate since the kids can elect any they choose to, without regard to a quota. I'll tell you that I did feel special when I knew that I had made the cut of my peers back in the day. I know Scoutmasters who talk with their units before the election, publish the eligibles list, and say "If you plan not to vote for someone on this ballot, I want to know about it in advance."

 

As for the First Class requirement, that is a house of straw, and we all know it. Outdoor Bronze? Ranger? Silver? They're all more than BSA's standard First Class. Mark my words. The day will come when a co-registered male Scout/Venturer is elected, his just as qualified friend in the Crew side is not elected, and she sues for discrimination. Even if it gets only to summary dismissal, BSA will have to spend $$$$ to defend the issue.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

A perfect illustration of that reality is having OA advisors on this board complaining about adults being nominated "as an honor."

 

As this thread has illustrated, it's really a rather pointless distinction, but it apparently feeds the ego of some people to make such a meaningless point.

 

Interesting that when they are pushed on the issue they fall back on what as a defense---- that being selected for OA is an honor for adults.

[SR540Beaver]

Methinks you just like to nitpick and argue as a sport. I've attempted to explain it from a variety of angles, but it is obvious that your mind is closed to anything but your personal feelings on the subject. If not, I can not help you with your reading comprehension issues. I've had far more people understand and agree with what I've said than the one person who takes exception to what I've said.

 

I think I said it earlier, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[SR540Beaver]

John,

 

A scout is trustworthy. All the election team can do is explain the voting process to the adult leaders, SPL and scouts in a troop concerning the elligibilty of a candadate and what guidelines they should use in making their votes. They monitor to make sure there is no talking and wheeling dealing going on. Beyond that, we accept the votes on their honor to be trustworthy. Do some people game the system or abuse it? Sure. My current VC of Ceremonies was dying to get in OA for three years. He was either not put on the ballot by the SM or he was overlooked for the more "popular" scouts who got elected. Funny thing with this troop, the same exact kids kept getting put on the ballot, kept getting elected and kept not completing their Ordeal. Yet you had this one kid who wanted in so bad he could taste it. He finally got elected, showed up for his Ordeal, showed up at the next chapter meeting and is now on of our officers. Even when the scouts are not "trustworthy", it seems to work out in the end. Kids elected because they are popular usually don't darken our door. Kids who have a drive and desire to be part of something bigger than themselves throw themself into it and run with it. The porcess isn't perfect, but overall it seems to work.

 

As I said, I have no strong feelings one way or another on girls being allowed in OA. You said that you think someday the BSA will spend big bucks in court over a discrimination case......they can more easily afford it than an individual girl and/or her family that bring suit. I'm no lawyer and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'm willing to bet that a court would throw it out. If not, it wouldn't go well for the girl. In your scenario, a boy is co-registered in a Troop and a Crew. His election is thru his Troop and has nothing to do with the Crew. The fact that both the boy and the girl are in the same Crew has nothing to do with her elligibilty in an organization of a program she is not a member of. Right or wrong, BSA has been to court over freedom of association and being able to bar gays and atheist from their organization. I think trying to force the OA to allow female Crew members into a Boy Scout honor society would fail in court.

[emb021]

"Interesting that when they are pushed on the issue they fall back on what as a defense---- that being selected for OA is an honor for adults. "

 

Sigh.

 

There are honors and then there are honors.

 

Again, being selected for the OA is NOT like Silver Beaver, et al.

 

An adults IS being honored by selection. But its NOT for what they have done (again and again, that is the purpose of honors like Silver Beaver et al), but because of what it is hoped they will bring to the Order and the youth in it. We do NOT want adults who will be 'sash and dash', who feel that getting in is the end of it, but will be willing to help the youth.

 

 

[BSA24]

>>QUOTE Because the Order of the Arrow is principally a youth organization, unit, district, and council Scouters are not selected for membership as a recognition. Selection should take place only when the adult's position in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. END QUOTE

 

 

 

You can't have it both ways.