Scoutmasters Not Members of OA

[hicountry]

SR, appreciate your enthusiasm for OA but I guess we just disagree on it, so far I am not sold on it and the annual push from OA to have elections with nothing to make it worth the scouts and parents time have mostly closed my mind to OA at this point.

 

ACCO it's not one person deciding, it's the ASM's who also don't have time, the parents who don't want to drive to OA meetings and functions, the scouts who were turned off to it either from our 2004 Eagle's experience, what they hear from others at camporres and such, the indian ceremonies they saw and what we used to describe what OA offers when we did make an attempt to educate scouts and gauge interest. It only comes across as one person making the decision because the OA election team comes to the SM as a single point of contact and his reposnes is a reflection of the troop feelings about OA, not that he is the sole decision maker.

 

MDS appreciate your enthusiasm but OA is another optional thing in scouting and we have no obligation to do it as are many opportunities in scouting ...optional. If we had a lame program, boys bored and dropping out after 14, not doing community service, not reeally functioning as boy led with real leadership, doing NYLT etc I might see some value in OA but that is not the case for us.

 

I sort of don't understand why some feel the need to push OA so much, many SM's don't see any value in it, they have no obligation to push it. Someone needs to realize the SM's, ASM's etc. out there are volunteering their time just to run a troop and many of us are doing a good job, it gets maddening when folks from district or council or OA or whatever are atempting to shove more stuff down adult leaders throats, trying to hit them up for more and more money, adding more reguirements, paperwork and some programs that only provide un needed hassle.

[johnponz]

Hicountry, OA is a group of Scouts that give back to their Councils by providing cheerful service. That is the heart of what the OA does. By saying "no" to the OA, you are denying your Scouts one more opportunity to provide service.

 

Additionally, when I was a Scout in the OA (about 25 or so years ago) OA provided an opportunity for older Scouts to have "fellowship" in a safe environment with like minded Scouts from other communities. This was one of the highlights of my long Scouting career which I carry on today as a district volunteer. The OA provides some with elements that troops cannot because of their local nature. Additionally, it gives youth the opportunity to lead a large organization.

 

OA if done right truly is a "brotherhood" of Scouts. Some of my most lasting relationships came because of the OA

 

I guess this is the "issue" with SMs who are not members of the OA. They really do not know all that the program has to offer. The fellowship and ideas that your Scouts will bring back to your troop as a result of theit interaction with the best that other troops have to offer is more than worth the little bit of time that is required on your part.

 

In the case of OA no one is adding requirements or asking for money. All that they are trying to do is give your Scouts one more place to better develop themselves. Your troop really has nothing to lose.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[hicountry]

Our scouts don't really need one more place or opportunity and they haven't been interested and to try and pull it off with our logisitcs is a hassle we know by experience it won't happen. I know the local reps trying to push OA would like to think they know better than us our issues and people but they don't, no matter how they wish things were different in our unit just so it suits THEIR purposes.

 

The problems all over the country getting troops and scouts interested, to join or to stay even to their ordeal, the sash n dashers etc all confirm our suspicions that OA doesn't have enough to offer for us to push it.

The troop program, NYLT, RAMS, merit badge colleges and other offerings we choose to support from distict or council do. It is a cafeteria menu and we have no obligation to eat every single thing on the buffet and push everyone in our group that they have to try every single thing. Life has choices, out troop takes some and not others, that's all.

 

This whole concept of "your troop needs to support OA, why aren't you supporting OA, you just must not understand, not doing OA is not an option etc" gets annoying and is a real turn off. That's probably why a lot of troops take the "we don't do OA" response and they don't owe anyone any reason. Probably why a lot of troops just don't respond, tired of hearing the same thing, same program and the same push, they are done with it.

Thank the lord someone is taking their time to try and run a good troop as an adult volunteer, they don't owe anything to anyone to add their sidetrack program into their program if they are running nicely. It's like the vacume cleaner salesman at the door, never mind you already have a similar product that works great and you and the wife are happy with it, he just HAS to keep trying to sell you even when the door is closing, then gets upset at YOU because you are not falling for his pitch.

 

Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to you John, appreciate your enthusiasm but I'm not hearing anything new at all, I think I've given my viewpoint and I have heard others so I see no reason for me to be involved in this thread past this point.

[Twocubdad]

Except that I am a Scoutmaster and Brotherhood member. I was chapter vice chief of somethin-er-other as a youth and spent three or four year pushing the boys in my troop to get involved. I drove my troop rep to most chapter meetings for a year and a half (Lord, what an incredible waste of time) and have attended at least one of the two ordeal weekends every year. I understand what the program should be.

 

But it isn't. Still, I'm not the one saying "we don't do OA." I've worked hard to establish the OA as part of our troop program. But it's pushing a string up hill and my guys vote with their feet. Over four or five years, I've had maybe 15 or 18 scouts inducted. Most are gone after their ordeal. But I've had a few who have really given it a shot, tried to get involved, and stuck with it for a year or more. Eventually they run the numbers and they drop too.

 

Fortunately, right now I have a troop OA advisor. But if he gets hit by a bus, I'm not picking up the slack again. There is no return on investment. My time and effort are better spent delivering a good troop program

[SR540Beaver]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, OA ENHANCES a boy's scouting career. It isn't there to take him away from his troop. It isn't there to necessarily provide something to your troop, although it does. The OA is a brotherhood of cheerful service. The OA exists as an arm of the scouting program where the best of a troop's scouts get elected to honor their commitment and dedication to being a living example of living the scout oath and law, a skillful camper and providing service within their troop. It is an honor bestowed upon a scout by his peers. An Arrowman's first responsibility is to his troop. If he chooses to participate more fully in what the OA has to offer him individually, that is his decision. Now, how does any of that translate into a "product" of value to the troops? First and foremost, the OA promotes camping and the councils summer camp. It is often the OA who clears the brush at camp, sets up the tents, sets up the program areas, does general maintenance. etc. to get your summer camp in working order each year. They probably help with your cub resident camp set up as well. They staff day camps, summer camps, camporees and webelos woods. Of course, I know troops who are an island unto themselves and feel no need for any district or council related events. Most other troops simply know that there is a troop 999, but have never seen them anywhere. Like I said before, the OA offers additional leadership opportunities at higher levels for larger groups of people than a troop does. It also provides opportunities to work at the BSA high adventure centers and hone skills that they initially learned back in their troop. Now you may say, "so what, what does that do for my troop and my scouts"? Well, it gives you a better scout with even more experience than your troop was able to provide for him. Some troops are large and have great a great program. I come from such a troop. We run 50 to 60 boys and have a large number of registered and trained adults. Each summer, we orgnaize our own high adventure trip to one of our bases like Philmont or someplace like the Pecos Wilderness. We tend to be one of the few "go to" troops for youth and/or adults for district and council needs. But we largely are the chapter in our district because we understand from experience what the OA brings to a boy who brings it back to his troop. But we are the exception to the rule. Many of the troops in our district have 5 to 15 boys and are lucky to have 2 active adults with at least one of them trained. They don't have the resources that a large troop has. They do depend on going to the council summer camp, they do depend on camporee. They do need an avenue for a boy to go to Philmont for $200 instead of having to send him with the council contingent for $800. It's the OA who has done much work preparing the Summit for the 2013 Jamboree and as a new high adventure base. It is the OA service corp who makes much of the Jamboree function well. The OA has much to offer to the boy who was honored by his troop. He then brings back his experience and expertise to his troop. That is what it is and what it could be if only troops would "do OA" and SM's would give it the slightest hint of support to the boys......if he allowed them to be elected and at least find out for himself.

[acco40]

Okay, as a Scoutmaster I had the huge burden of supporting the OA. I actually had to yield 10 to 20 minutes to a youth at one of our meetings and get this - I actually had to labor away for almost 5 minutes counting ballots and writing down names, addresses, age, and rank for selected boys on the ballot. On top of it all, I had to do this not just once but once a year!

 

Gosh, these organizations that just swallow up my precious time are really getting on my nerves!

[Twocubdad]

Do lodges have JTE standards or something like "Quality Lodge?" Are the results posted anywhere? How about statistics on retention rates -- Ordeal members who continue on as dues paying members. How rates for brotherhood conversion?

 

Seems to me our conflict here is between those with good lodges and not.

[BartHumphries]

Well, I can see the point that some people have made about it putting more work on the Scoutmasters. Take my troop, for instance. We're a small troop. We have plenty of adult leaders. Roughly half the boys, though, don't live with their father. Either the parents are divorced and the father lives elsewhere or the father was deported a couple years ago, or something else. The single mothers work hard -- darn hard -- too hard to be driving kids out to some event (I live in a rural area, it's at least 30 minutes to an hour to get anywhere, depending on how many people you have to pick up/drop off). Since youth cannot drive other youth around without a parent of the driver in the car until 17 at least (15.5 you can apply for a learner's permit, which you have to have for six months before you can apply for your license which you must have for a year before you can drive other youth under 18 without your parent present), this basically means at least half the youth basically aren't going to be driving other youth to any OA event until they're about to leave the troop. The roughly other half of the troop couldn't drive because of how many cars their family has.

 

This basically means that, for any activity, one of the normal adult leaders has to drive. This isn't a problem for events that we schedule within the troop, since we schedule them around our lives so that they aren't problems. Events scheduled by other people are typically more problematic. Don't forget the extra 30 minutes to an hour just to get to a "nearby" event at the Council office. If we go to the typical Council camp that they use for events, add on another hour just to get there. Then there's the "two-deep leadership" thing. We can't just go with a single non-parent adult leader to drive boys down, we need two adults. That sort of commitment starts to add up fairly quickly.

 

When someone earlier angrily said that some Scoutmasters were "denying their boys an opportunity to serve" I kind of looked askance at that statement. I mean, in my (former) Rotary chapter during Christmas 2010 (I'm no longer in Rotary as they moved the weekly meeting night to the same evening/time as the Scout toop, although I still volunteer to work with them occasionally like this past Thanksgiving), we teamed up with some other service organizations on the mountain. It turns out there are quite literally dozens of service organizations within 15 minutes drive time, all of which do really good work. It's not difficult to find more opportunities to serve. If one organization conflicts with its scheduled times (like Rotary), or if one is going to require regular commitments of hours long driving time on the part of two adult leaders in the troop for the boys to get there, then perhaps a different service organization would be better.

 

One boy, who's now in college, was going around with Rotaract, the youth-high-school version of Rotary just before he left to go to college, doing some great service projects with them. He choose not to join the Order of the Arrow -- that's his choice. I don't think he was denied a service opportunity, I think he found a magnificent service opportunity right in his own backyard.

 

I'm not saying that nobody from my troop will join the Order of the Arrow -- someone might join. We'll have to see over this next year as some of the younger boys start to meet the entry requirements. I'm just saying, I understand where some Scoutmasters are coming from when they say that they're just too busy. Understanding does not necessarily mean acceptance, but I do understand where they're coming from and I'm not going to knock them for it.

[johnponz]

(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[johnponz]

A couple of points:

 

1. Internet discussion boards are not a good way to convey emotion (much like e-mail). I was not trying to convey anger because I am not angry. I was just trying to convey my point of view in a concise quick manner.

 

2. When I was a youth in OA, yes things were different then. My SM (who was one of the best people that I ever met-but that is another story) was an OA member, but did not attend an OA event (not one).

 

3. It is not and should not be the Adult unit leadership's job to get youth to OA events (they have enough to do with events that they plan). If an adult is an OA member and wants to take youth members to events that is fine, but it should not be their responsibility.

 

4. To reiterate the point above, the youth member needs to find their own way to the event (where there is a will there is a way). Heck, I think that the youth's parent should take them. I used to hitch a ride from someone from the next town when I was a youth. I was the only participating youth member from my troop. It was much as you described (service center was 45 minutes away camp was over an hour). I only had to hitch a ride for a year because I was inducted at 15 and back then could drive at 16 (parents let me borrow the car for Scouts). If you are a lodge officer like I was there are a lot of meetings and you need to attend them, but again I believe the youth will find a way if he really wants to do it.

 

5. With regard to 2 deep leadersahip. As long as there are 2 youth in a car with an adult that is fine. The issue is one on one contact.

 

6. Finally, and this is not anger just a point, I believe that sometimes unit volunteers forget that the people planning OA events and district events are volunteers as well who are giving up their time so that the Scouts in the Units have a better experience. We are in this Scouting thing together and to make it work we need to support each other and each other's program. Today we view too many things in the business context of customer and supplier. That should not be the case in Scouting. We are all part of the same movement with a part to play in a boy's character development. I believe it is unnfair to the youth for an adult within the movement to deny the youth exposure to another part of the movement. I hope this clarified my point a little bit. I guess that the customer thing does tend to annoy me a little.

 

7. Of course my point of view is shaped by my own experiences, and I really had a good time in both Scouts and OA, and they helped me become the person that I am today. I guess people who did not have such a good experience would feel differently. I am very fortunate that the I had great Unit volunteers and great volunteer advisors in OA to make my experience so good and to shape my views as they did.

 

Merry Christmas all, and truly thanks for all that you do and all the time that you give to the Scouting movement.

 

 

 

Merry Christmas(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[SR540Beaver]

Seattle, my parents sounded like a broken record too when they insisted I eat my vegetables and take regular baths. They never really changed their old tired sales pitch either. I eventually realized they were right.

 

Look, I was a scouter and my son was a scout without OA and later in OA. I've seen it from both sides and after the fact, realize what it has to offer, because we actually decided to give it a try. That's all we are ever asking......hold elections and let a boy decide to do his Ordeal or not. Who knows, your troop could have a National Chief a few years down the road....all because you allowed 20 minutes for an election and he found another aspect of scouting he likes.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Beaver,

 

Sorry, in my opinion it is unreasonable of you to claim that unit leaders have an obligation to "give OA a chance."

 

 

You refuse to recognize that there is NO such obligation.

 

Frankly, when I run into people who can't recognize reality when it is repeatedly explained to them, those people worry me. And too often on OA oriented threads, I see OA leaders and advocates who just can't recognize and deal with the realities surrounding OA.

 

Every time I see that, I am a lot less likely to want to support OA, although I have never had bad experiences in person with OA myself.

 

You guys can be your own worst enemies.

[John-in-KC]

TCD: In a word, yes.

 

From the National website, the Order will join JTE in 2012.

 

For 2011, Quality Lodge is still the program. Southern Region published the OA Quality Lodge guide on their website:

http://southern.oa-bsa.org/lodgeresources/Quality%20Lodge%20Guidebook%202011.pdf(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[SR540Beaver]

Seattle,

 

You have it wrong. I'm fully aware and accept that NO is an option as I have troops who each year tell us no. They are well within their rights to do so. Whether I think they should feel an obligation is neither here nor there. I do think they are being very close minded and short sighted. I'm a Chapter Adviser. I personally have an obligation and responsibility to promote and advocate for the OA. If I wasn't, I would hope that the Lodge Adviser would remove me from my position. Can you imagine an SM or troop who refuses to recruit new boys? What eventually happens to them? Do you want an SM who takes an attitude that boys will come if they want to, but we aren't going to go try to get them? I've seen these guys who have the feeder pack mentality that kids are obligated to join their troop and they need do nothing else to bring boys in. Sorry, that isn't me. I'm going to do my job and we are going to ask each troop in our district each year to allow us to come do an election. Each year they will exercise their right to say yes or no. While I think the no answer is foolish, it is their right. My issue is when the answer each year is, "we don't do OA" and they can't seem give you a reason why.

[bemiller328]

I have a Troop that is going on its third year of existence. That said, we got the boys involved in our local OA Chapter in the second year, and they wouldn't miss a meeting or especially a fellowship. Maybe from reading the posts, it appears that there is a lot of difference in the quality of the OA experience. Our Lodge is big, well led by the youth, and advised well. When I compare my youth experience in OA to the one my son is receiving, I see a lot more opportunity for leadership and participation on the part of him as a 14 year old than I had (it seemed as if the very senior boys and the adults treated my old lodge like a personal club that even if you went to Brotherhood, which I did, you weren't really part of things.

 

Our SM is an OA member, but doesn't participate. The two active adults were both OA as youth and we support and frankly have a lot of fun as well.