Christian Objection to OA

[Gunny2862]

We're getting off the original topic and on to "possible/perceived youth protection issues in the OA".

 

I'm also seeing what I perceive as a lot of crosstalk(no pun intended).

 

I think some long time volunteers(Scouters) are forgetting that other/new parents/New Scouters who may not have a background in Scouting, some of which become new leaders(the way I did)don't have all of the insight you(and now I) do. They have valid and legitimate concerns possibly not only about Scout Leaders but now about this portion of Scouting where there is "Secrecy" and "Mystery" about the program and where they are now (having been given the little booklet at the front of the Scout book to discuss with their child which has awakened any dormant fears they might have had), are now being asked to send little Johnny off for his Ordeal a)overnight b)to an undisclosed place in the woods c)for a purpose they don't know d) with leadership other than their Scoutmaster(whom at least they know) e) culminating in a Ceremony that they may have heard contains "Blood Oaths" and "Strange Rituals" and as a kicker (although I fully agree with the point that if the adult is later inducted it removes some of the experience for them) are asked not to observe this as their child experiences it and in some cases run into Scout Leaders who tell them erroneously that they aren't allowed to observe their child during this event - causing more apprehension.

 

I also see new Scouters who are occasionally without any Scouting background who are cautious (possibly overly so)about what they are exposing their children and those of other families that they are now responsible for. When we aren't open and honest and clear in our communication with them we get the responses we see above. Tell them the whole deal but that if they get involved in the OA then their Ordeal experience is at risk(but that is of much less concern to a good potential SM(or Parent) than the safety of his Scouts), and get in contact with and encourage their Committee to get them nominated for membership(at least the Scoutmaster or one ASM) as quickly as possible.

 

I have to to tell you I became a Scouter in response to my wife's charge that although my son wanted to go camping with his friend who was doing that in Scouting that She wasn't "sending her baby off in the woods with those Tan shirted freaks unless I went with him". Well, he wanted to go and here I am, a Tan Shirted Freak in the eyes of new Scout parents - I see and hear the new Parents having her concerns every year with new crossovers - I might suggest that if you've forgotten this, it might be courteous to re-visit the idea and take a fresh look at what new Parents see when they look at the Program with out our Scouter frame of reference.

(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Jeffrey H]

"With all that being said, My boys will not be involved unless I am a member also..."

 

Assuming that you are eligible to be nominated, ask your Troop Committee to nominate you to the OA and turn in your name to your local OA Lodge. At a time determined by your local Lodge, you will be "called out" and then will be required to attend Ordeal before you are accepted into OA membership.

 

If your boys want to be involved with the OA, my hope is they will not have to wait on you for very long. Hopefully, your nomination can be done at the same time as your eligible scouts.

 

Best Wishes.

[Gunny2862]

@ JeffH

My outgoing SM ensured that his ASMs were nominated and at least the presumptive successors(me) were in before he left.

 

Scoutmasters don't have to be in the OA, nor does anyone else in the Adult side, but to avoid these misunderstandings it sure helps.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[BadenP]

 

 

We wonder why the OA has gotten this bad rap or stigma about it, and why lodges keep going under, and why boy scouts know so little about the OA or could care less about joining, and it always comes down to one thing the ADULTS. The adult scouters who try to control and manipulate what goes on in the lodge, trying to recreate the lodges of their youth. The adult parents who manufacture these untrue horror stories about the OA being anti Christian and making the boys endure these "harsh and humiliating rituals", "swearing a blood oath to false gods". This nonsense really has gotten so out of hand that it is sickening and in the process is destroying what once was a highly sought after honor in the BSA.

 

IMO adult scouters should have no part in the planning or implementation of the OA program. The lodge officers should report only to the council lodge advisor appointed by the SE who can help guide them in how to plan and organize their events. Eliminate chapter advisors as a position and in its place have a pool of adult volunteers who have expertise in various skills which the lodge officers can call upon for help only when needed. In my own experiences with four different lodges whenever there was a serious problem or situation it was ALWAYS caused by an adult lodge advisor or a SM trying to control how something was going to be done.

 

If we want our boys to grow into true leaders we adults need to learn to back off more and more and let the boys lead. Then nonsensical non issue threads like this one will become things of the past.

[Gunny2862]

I pretty much agree on the FUNCTIONING of the Lodge and ours does a good job because of some strong interference when necessary either backing up the LEC or just putting a moral hedge between the (want to be interfering)adults and the LEC.

 

But as to curbing the problem/s, having an Adult at the Troop level who understands and is willing to have proper discussion as the questions occur with the Parents at the Troop level would go a long way towards ending the perception issues and being able to to explain the issues as any particular local faith based CO might see them.

[acco40]

BadenP - Boy Scout Troops are to be no more adult led than OA lodges so I don't get your reasoning.

 

What is the reason for nominating an adult to the OA? It is only when the adult's job in the troop will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. It must not be for the purpose of adult recognition. So if your local OA lodge is being hindered by the adults in the lodge, they must be selecting the wrong folks.

 

When I was selected to join the Order of the Arrow, it was because I met the minimal requirements and as Scoutmaster, I promoted the Order, drove Scouts to OA meetings, performed service when requested and also I hope because I could serve as a good role model. I've never attended, nor needed to attend, any of the monthly OA meetings. That was for the boys. I did attend some conclaves and stayed way out of the way - my presence was mostly to provide service and to congratulate ordeal & brotherhood candidates.

[BadenP]

acco

 

I think you don't understand what I was saying. The problem in too many lodges, especially in the ones I have been associated with, is that the adults are in total control, just like many of the current troops, shaping them and organizing them with their own vision rather than letting the youth officers and members lead and develop a program for the lodge. The question of a so called Christian objection to the OA again is a fabrication of certain adult scouters who misinform parents about what the OA is and does as my previous post points out.

[Gunny2862]

Now back on the original topic, I think there are practitioners of certain Christian denominations who may believe that they have valid objections to the OA as in their view it may be seen to contradict or be in conflict with certain doctrines of their denomination, and I, in no way, wish to denigrate their belief.

 

I am certain that, given the human condition, there are other objections but let's just look at one for now.

 

An actual open minded examination of the program materials should lead one to believe (IMHO) that there is no real problem here. There are no additional deities, the Great Spirit that may be alluded to can certainly be seen as God, if one chooses to do so, and the Christian God goes by many names, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, The Great Shepherd, the Great Fisherman, YHWH, Yahweh. The problem may arise when one realizes that in Scouting the program does rely on the individual Scout practicing some form of spirituality and having a reliance on a higher power of some form. This then may drive the idea for the Christian of a particular denomination that, "That person not of my denomination or not necessarily even a Christian is acknowledging the same Great Spirit that I am" which then drives the idea that this Great Spirit isn't the God which this Christian worships. When in practice they may in fact be acknowledging a different higher power(or none at all - seeing the OA ceremony as participating in a play rather than a religious action). For folks that choose a hard line in this area I would ask if they ever participate in ecumenical services, and if so, why are they certain that this person of a different denomination is worshiping the same God that they are, seeing that they have this denominational difference. For those who stand apart and would never participate in a Service that wasn't provided by their denomination, this becomes an un-winnable discussion and the best thing is to just accept their position and cheerfully and in a friendly way acknowledge that the OA may not be the program for them.

 

[acco40]

If the lodges you are associated with have "too much" adult involvement - why not do something about it? In our lodge, the boys said it was the adults job to determine if they wanted fries or onions rings with their meals. Every other decision was up to the youth.

[SR540Beaver]

acco,

 

Amen, brother! In our Lodge, the Lodge Adviser has a saying, "This is YOUR Lodge, this is YOUR time". I've carried that to the Chapter level with, "This is YOUR Chapter, this is YOUR time". We are here to advise and facilitate their plan.

[12Laws]

As a devout Christian (and son of a minister), and as a member of OA -- and having taken many, many courses in comparative theology, my opinion is that there is no conflict between the Christian faith and OA -- at least as I have observed.

 

I might add that my father was an active member of OA as well... he seemed to see no conflict.