Joining requirements

[nldscout]

SR540Beaver

 

You really should read the rules.

 

Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow?

 

A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the Unit Leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement.

 

As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (#34997A, 1999 revision, page 20):

 

"Unit Leader Approval. To become eligible for election, a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his Scout spirit (i.e. his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election."

 

Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader.

 

 

[nldscout]

SR540Beaver

 

You really should read the rules.

 

Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow?

 

A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the Unit Leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement.

 

As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (#34997A, 1999 revision, page 20):

 

"Unit Leader Approval. To become eligible for election, a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his Scout spirit (i.e. his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election."

 

Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

nldscout,

 

I'm a Chapter Adviser and very familiar with the membership requirements and the election process as outlined in the Guide for Officers and Advisers. In fact, we are gearing up for our elctions right now and doing team training tomorrow night. You posted only part of what the guide says.

 

Unit leader approval

 

To become eligible for election, a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his Scout spirit (i.e., his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election.

 

Youth membership qualifications

 

All members of, or candidates for membership in, the Order of the Arrow who are under 21 years of age shall be considered youth members or candidates for youth membership, subject to meeting the following requirements:

 

Be a registered member of the Boy Scouts of America.

Hold the First Class rank of the Boy Scouts of America,

as a minimum.

After registration with a troop or team, have experienced 15 days and nights of Boy Scout camping during the two-year period prior to the election. The 15 days and nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and

five nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. The balance of the camping must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps.

 

Candidates for youth membership shall be elected by other youth members in accordance with policies set forth by the national Order of the Arrow committee.

 

Note that it says, "The unit leader "must" also "certify" that the nominee "meets all specified requirements" at the time of this annual election. It doesn't say that the SM interprets the "specified" requirements. The requirements are fairly cut and dried. If a boy is one requirement away from First Class, he doesn't qualify. The SM doesn't get to decide that he is close enough in spirit to be onthe ballot. Are there some who might? Sure. Are they being trustworthy? No. Granted, it is the honor system. Our election teams are not going to ask for TroopMaster reports or make boys crack open their handbooks. We take the SM at his word when he "certifies" they have met requirements.

 

All of that being said, I'm quite used to selected unit leaders wanting to play fast and loose with the "rules". I have one maverick unit who has three boys complaining that they have not been able to seal their Brotherhood in two years. Now, they have had at least eight opportunities over those two years, but they've always been "busy" when the ceremonies were held. This unit leader actually called me last week wanting to know if he could get a copy of the Brotherhood ceremony and read it to the boys in a "private" ceremony to go ahead and get it done. Uh, no.......you can't. This is the same troop that called the District Training Chair and asked to get a stack of Youth Protection cards because they were going to do their own training. Uh, no. They are also trying to avoid the new training requirments for recharter by claiming they did IOLS and SM Specific at an out of state summer camp this year.

 

That is why I'm not a big fan of interpreting requirements.

[BadenP]

Shortridge

Yes a camp can start before certification but I have witnessed two camps being closed in the middle of summer because they failed inspection with some serious violations, and the council's had to refund all that money to the units still coming and closed down the camps. In both cases it was deemed too expensive to bring those camps into compliance so they were sold. That is why any camp that opens and not certified ready is taking a big risk and being irresponsible to the scouts scheduled to attend. That is why your attitude is just plain illogical and undefensible.

[Eagle92]

Been a while since I had to deal with resident camp certs, but isn't the cert good for a year? So when camp opens up, they are still certified until the inspectors show up, usually the first week of camp in my expereince.

 

 

[shortridge]

BadenP,

 

You wrote about "a requirement for BSA council camps in order to get CERTIFIED before they can even hold a summer camp program."

 

That's clearly not accurate, as I pointed out and you yourself just acknowledged. I certainly agree with you that not being up to standard is stupid. But camps don't have to be certified to open their doors to campers.

 

Such a requirement would mean that all inspection teams across the country would have to descend on every camp in the 24-hour period that exists between the end of staff training week and the start of summer camp - because one of the standards is that the staff has to be trained.

 

You can state your opinion all you want, but there's no need to cause confusion by mixing opinion with fact.

[BadenP]

Shortridge

 

My oh my how you love to twist things around. What I said was no camp should open up before they know they are not certifiable, that is just common sense and good business policy, and the two examples I gave prove why. As a camp director and Asst camp director the council staff, camp staff and I did an in depth inspection months before we opened to make sure ALL the problems, serious and minor, we found were fixed before we opened up for business. We knew that as a result we would sail through the inspection with flying colors, which we did. No it is not an official BSA policy but any good and reputable council would do the same so the inspection will not become a major hurdle when it happens, and that was sound advice I received at National Camp School as well.

 

Eagle 92 is correct when he says that an inspection certification is good for a year, but you DO NOT wait until next years inspection before you fix a problem that has been discovered,you know is serious and could put your certification and your campers at risk.

[shortridge]

BadenP,

 

I'll let your own words stand for themselves.

 

Sorry for taking this thread off-topic, anyone.

[Eagle92]

Don't know about other inspectors, but the COPE inspector I ran into the year we opened up the course was very thorough and understanding. Some of out equipment was still in boxes, and some hadn't arrived yet! Worked with us, told us what needed to be done, and did check up a few days later. Kinda helped that one of the DEs use to work for a company that built COPE courses though

[JerseyScout]

Talked to the chapter advisor, he said as long as the Scouts camped out as part of a Boy Scout program for an entire week (not just a weekend, and not a week with the family or with the YMCA or in their backyard either), they are covered. He seemed happy at the potential new members, as our troop hasn't added any OA members in three years, and OA isn't doing well.

 

SR540Beaver ~ I'm sure Order of the Arrow is a lovely program, it just wasn't for me. Other kids in my troop did it, I played and watched sports and played music with my friends with that time. I had fun with those and with Scouts, no regrets with any of it.

 

Even though it wasn't for me, I'm happy that at least two of my Scouts are interested in joining OA. There hasn't been interest in a while, maybe these newbies will get in and love it. Maybe they'll become the head honchos over at the lodge and make the lodge more sucessful. Maybe they'll spread our boy-led, patrol system, high adventure plague to other troops in our area. Alright, third one might be a stretch, but it makes me feel better.