Distinction of election

[mds3d]

An overly important sounding title I know.

 

After some recent discussion about the loss of the different border flaps another adult Arrowman brought up another issue.

 

That is, he believes there should be a way to tell which adults were "selected" to serve as Scouters, and which were "elected" as Youth.

 

We never could agree on whether this was a good Idea or not and what would be an appropriate distinction but I thought that I would get your opinion on the subject.

[UCEagle72]

An Arrowman is an Arrowman, regardless of how they got there.

 

As long as they give 'service' - then why does it matter?

 

[dg98adams]

How is the distinction important?

[bsrsakima39]

I have to agree with UCEagle and dg98. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. However, let's say that we do distinguish between the two. Which is considered "more important?" The adult who has involved as a youth (to what extend, we have no idea), or the adult who was (theoretically) selected because he has the ability to affect the Order in a positive manner? Both are incredibly important, both bring different perspectives. One of the goals of removing the flap restrictions was to recognize us as one Brotherhood, no member being any greater or less than any other. Like the universal flap rule or not, we all should be striving to break down borders amongst members.

[emb021]

"After some recent discussion about the loss of the different border flaps another adult Arrowman brought up another issue."

 

Uh, its actually been policy for many decades that lodges should not do different color border flaps. Just that some choice to ignore it or the like.

 

"That is, he believes there should be a way to tell which adults were "selected" to serve as Scouters, and which were "elected" as Youth."

 

Well, fwiw, in Mic-O-Say, they use horns on their necklaces to indicate if the adult received membership as a youth or as an adult. (turned in or turned out, don't know off hand which is which).

 

 

[shortridge]

One of the truly great things about the Order is the lack of barriers and walls. We are all brothers, and putting additional distinctions in place is simply counterproductive.

[WAKWIB]

"Well, fwiw, in Mic-O-Say, they use horns on their necklaces to indicate if the adult received membership as a youth or as an adult. (turned in or turned out, don't know off hand which is which)."

 

Those would be claws not "horns"; imitation of eagle claws to be precise.

They are in pairs. Back-to-back with tips out, entered the tribe as a youth. Turned down, entered as an adult.

[jhankins]

What does it matter if a man is elected as a youth or adult? Does that make him any less of a servant? I was elected this past April, one of four women from my district. Should I be branded any differently than I am now being an Arrowman with girly parts? What's the significance, and how does it better the Order to do so?

 

Cheerful service is cheerful service, it doesn't matter how you have come into it. I recently met a 69 year old lady who when approached by a lodge leader, she says "How may I serve you?" and she means it. Just because she was elected 10 years ago -- does that mean she's any less of a powerful servant of the Order?

[nolesrule]

Just to be clear.

 

Youth are elected. Adults are selected.

[Tokala]

To the OP, this sounds like just an attempt to create a patch for someone that feels that they are more important than someone else. The true meaning of the Order frowns on such concepts.

 

We should concentrate on the present and the ability of people to promote the Order. Who cares if someone was inducted as a youth or adult? Both are recognized for their skills, talents and willingness to serve.

[Nachamawat]

If we are all fellow Arrowmen, as some here have pointed out, then why do some feel the need to point out the difference in "rank" between Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil members, youth elected, or adult selected by wearing different styled pocket flaps or distinctive pocket rockets when not wearing the sash? I thought the movement away from distinctive flaps that were the norm through the late '70s was an attempt to equalize the levels of "brotherhood" in the "Order" after all. I have yet to seal my membership in the OA, I am an Ordeal member from the class of 1976 and I will seek my Brotherhood this fall as my son takes his Ordeal. I had a very long break in my cheerful service but I am back and willingly involved. I am not seeking accolades or applause. I am simply looking to serve my fellow Scouts and Scouting. I was honored to selected by my peers in 1976, OMG, could it have been that long ago, and I hoped I would be around to serve again. I do not need a special patch to validate my history!

[jhankins]

My council puts out a "golden arrow" flap for those that pay ahead for fall fellowship, all the ordeals and dues all in one hit. The two people I saw wearing them certainly werent' about service and were quick to point out their embroidered golden arrow on their flap and brag about it like it was a status symbol.

[captainron14]

Well you could take this further.

Why have different sashes? Are we not all equal? Some see no difference in "different colored Borders" on a patch/flap and the 3 different sashes.

Try talking about doing away with the flaps and using a generic sash or even bolder, just use the standard pocket dangle! The collectors as well as the "Money Changers" at Council (and National) will scream!!

 

Now about the Youth vs. Adult question.

Where the reason for the Adult selection is to further support the order. All too often it is a carrot or reward. Some are valid selections, some are nothing but a bribe or a political payoff. But then again you see the same thing done with the District Award of Merit and the Silver Beaver.

How do you control it? You can't

[desertrat77]

I don't think a distinction is necessary. Too many in scouting already--those silly shoulder loops, for example.

 

Next thing you know, National might sell a Cubmaster Patch with a gold star on it to show the wearer to be a recipient of the Award of Merit.

 

How needless a distinction would that be?

 

While I wholeheartedly agree that an Arrowman is an Arrowman, this is not always practiced. The Vigil Honor folks can be quite unsufferable at times. Outside the OA, WBers and Eagle Scouts can be just as full of themselves.

[ntrog8r]

So what were (are) your associate's arguments FOR the distinction?

 

Personally, I don't know why it matters. Maybe we should distinguish those who work "more" than others, or who did the "right" projests thorugh the year, or gave the "most" support, etc. Elitism is a disturbing thing - especially among ADULTs in a YOUTH organization. I continue to wear my Ordeal sash to most OA events, and always will. When and how I became a member and my level of membership are not important, especially as an adult.

 

On the other hand, recognition of achievements is valid and important. The trick is to make sure we recognize achievements, not every action and possible distinction.