Venturing Eligibility for OA - An Idea...

[nldscout]

These young ladies that are working at the camps, while they may be great, are employees, plain and simple. There are a lot of young men that work at these camps also that are not OA members, so why should we make changes for the female youth?

 

The rules say, OA is a Boy Scout Youth Program. Adults are a totally separate subject. Until Boyscouts go coed, which will be never I predict because of the loss of membership it will cause, then there is no youth female members.

 

Why must we bend the program to accomondate someone when they knew the rules going in to it.

[John-in-KC]

Judge: Your argument is a crock of BULL****. Plain and simple.

 

First year camp salary in my Council is $37 a week and found. For the youth who work in our Central Camp, with about a six hour work day, that comes to about $1 per hour gross, before Federal, State, SS, and Medicare taxes.

 

The kids working Cub World work 14 hours day 1, 11 day 2, and then do it again. That's 50 hours for $37 ... that's less than a dollar per hour.

 

The youth members who serve our Council camps may be employees, but they are doing it for something greater than the dough. They are giving cheerful service back to Scouting.

 

Don't try telling me their room and board makes up the difference. It doesn't, not even.

 

IF we were actually giving them minimum wage for actual hours worked, well, camp wouldn't be affordable to a lot of Scouts and Scout families.

 

So I will keep saying this: The young women Venturers who serve Scouting by serving our camps merit entry into the Order. They do more than any 10 youth in Troops who spend a week of their summer being camper Timmy and then going to some clerk job at a market or convenience store.

[BDPT00]

John-KC,

Does Mic-O-Say allow/encourage youth female membership? Why? Why not?

BDPT00

[John-in-KC]

I will have to check on age eligibility. The tougher pole is that they must join Troops, not Crews, as ASMs.

[emb021]

"These young ladies that are working at the camps, while they may be great, are employees, plain and simple. There are a lot of young men that work at these camps also that are not OA members, so why should we make changes for the female youth?"

 

Please. To just call these youth, boys and girls, 'employees' is a bit insulting. This isn't the same as working a part time job to these youth. John in KC may have said it more 'forcefully' then I would, but I'd have to agree.

 

"The rules say, OA is a Boy Scout Youth Program."

 

'rules'?? What 'rules'?? The placement of the OA program under the Boy Scout Program was fairly recent. When the OA was first pulled into the BSA, it was put into the Senior Program, along with the other senior programs (Explorer Scouts, Air Scouts, Sea Scouts, etc). This is why elections to the OA was possible for various scouts in the senior programs, and remained so until the 80s. Later it was moved to the Camping committee, and much later to the Boy Scout committee. But the Boy Scout Committee is no more. So, should the OA still be thought as part of the 'Boy Scout Program'?? That's for others to determine...

 

[sherminator505]

"The rules say, OA is a Boy Scout Youth Program. Adults are a totally separate subject. Until Boyscouts go coed, which will be never I predict because of the loss of membership it will cause, then there is no youth female members."

 

Where are these "rules" written? And as I highlighted earlier, isn't the Order referred as "Scouting's National Honor Society," a billing that extends beyond simply the Boy Scout program.

 

What I have suggested here is not a "bending" of the rules. What I have suggested is a CHANGING of the rules to better reflect the realities in Scouting today.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[WAKWIB]

"Does Mic-O-Say allow/encourage youth female membership? Why? Why not?

BDPT00"

 

Mic-O-Say is a Boy Scout specific program at this time. Female membership is limited to adult leaders. In our council we have two camps Bartle and Naish. Bartle is the place for MOS ceremonies etc. Naish is the place for OA ceremonies etc. Naish has seen more employment of under 21 females on staff than Bartle, and is the camp that John-in-KC is referencing in his previous posts. I can think of only one under 21 female that has served at Bartle over the last 10 years I have been "re-involved." Not sure why that is, but Barle usually draws a very large pool of boy staff applicants every year. Also has a very large pool of returning staffers. Quite a few stick with it for 4-6 years or more. The increasing levels of responsibility that they can accrue in MOS is a very big draw.

 

There was a tremendous amount of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when the first female leaders were inducted into the Tribe back in the late '80s but now it's very common, encouraged, and accepted. Knowing that there has been a lot of girls on staff at Naish has made me wonder if/when OA would be open to them, but that has to come down from the powers that be. Should the day come when the "Boy" Scout program goes co-ed then OA and MOS will have to directly follow suit.

[Gary_Miller]

I think this says it all.

 

OA Operations Update 98-10

 

NEW VENTURING PROGRAM OF THE BSA

 

Venturing is a new youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for

young men and women who are 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20

years of age.

 

Venturing crews specialize in a variety of avocation or hobby interests. Venturing

programs are developed around six experience areas of emphasis.

 

The National Order of the Arrow Committee currently has no plans of conducting OA

elections in Venturing crews. The Order is a program element of the Boy Scout

program only, as it has been for 83 years.

 

OA Operations Update 99-2

 

UNIT ELECTIONS TO BE HELD IN TROOPS AND VARSITY TEAMS ONLY

 

Since its beginning in 1915, the Order of the Arrow has been a program of Boy Scouting. When it

became the official honor camping program of the Boy Scouts of America in 1948, it was linked to

Boy Scouting. In the 1974 reorganization of the BSA, the national Order of the Arrow committee

became a subcommittee of the national Boy Scout committee.

 

Today, after 84 years of existence, the Order of the Arrow continues to be a service and program

arm of Boy Scouting. Although its members have and continued to provide service and support to

Cub Scouting, Exploring in the past, and now the new Venturing program, its roots have always been

in the Boy Scout program.

 

A few volunteer Scouters in the Boy Scouts of America have asked why OA unit elections are not

permitted in Venturing Crews. Crews are not authorized to conduct elections for two major reasons:

 

0 The Order of the Arrow is a program for Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts between the ages of

11 - 18. If that Boy Scout policy changes, the Order would readily welcome venturers into the

Brotherhood of Cheerful Service.

 

0 Venturers do not earn the First Class rank of the Boy Scouts of America, a key membership

requirement that must be met before a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout is eligible for election into

the Order of the Arrow.

 

If anyone would like additional information about the Orders unit election policy, please contact

Clyde Mayer, OA Director, at the national BSA office.972-580-2440.

[sherminator505]

Thanks for the info, Gary. What would be your opinion about changing the rules, and why?

[Gary_Miller]

I don't think the rule should be changed.

 

With in BSA there are several programs.

Cub Scouts

Boy Scouts

Varsity Scouts

Venturing

 

Although they are part of the Boy Scouts of America. They each have their own purpose and traditions and operate separate of each other.

 

The Venturing program is a separate program all its own. And while there are many great people in the program it needs to stand alone.

 

In my lodge there has been many past abuses of this policy. Allowing adult Venture advisors to be nominated and selected. Our dance team formed a Venturing Crew just so girls can be on the team, mostly because the Dance Team advisor had girls, once the girls turned 21 they became Venturing Crew committee members and were nominated and selected into the OA. Now explane to me how this happens since there can not be unit elections in a crew.

 

I'm currently working to stop this abuse that has been excepted by the Lodge Advisor. Its and up hill battle but I have the OA Guide books on my side and it mostly educating those who choose to not read, learn , or adhere to OA policy.

 

We need to preserve the traditions of each of the different programs within BSA. OA elections within Troops and Teams, which are both part of the Boy Scout program, is one of those traditions that needs to be preserved.

 

[UCEagle72]

Gary --

 

The point of the discussion is to debate rules which are more than decade old (the exact ones you site, issued in 1998 & 1999). For those of us who remember such things, until the late 70s/early-80s, there were OA elections in Explorer posts - and Exploring became co-ed in 1969.

 

In 1988, we allowed female Scout Leaders to be nominated to the adult selection committee for OA.

 

Rather than clinging to antiquated rulings, do you think it would be better if you could site a sound reason why young women in Venturing who have completed the camping requirement, who have shown leadership, should be overlooked?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nldscout]

"Rather than clinging to antiquated rulings, do you think it would be better if you could site a sound reason why young women in Venturing who have completed the camping requirement, who have shown leadership, should be overlooked? "

 

They are not being overlooked, they simply are not BOY SCOUTS.

 

If venturing wants an honor program then let them set up a similar, parallel program. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

 

 

[emb021]

"The Order is a program element of the Boy Scout

program only, as it has been for 83 years."

 

except that the "it has been for 83 years" is a bit of hyperbole. It was originally part of the Senior Scout Division. I's have to check my notes, but the OA wasn't moved to the Boy Scout program until the 60s or 70s.

 

"Venturers do not earn the First Class rank of the Boy Scouts of America, a key membership requirement that must be met before a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout is eligible for election into the Order of the Arrow."

 

While true, not so in the past, where Explorers were elected in without needing First Class from day one.

[Eagle92]

Also the OA is now considered "Scoutings National Honor Society," and Venturing is part of Scouting.

 

 

Also the OA's purpose is to:

 

" * Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.

* Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scouts experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.

* Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.

* Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others. "

 

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of Female venturers who do just the above.

 

However I do wish the Corps of Discovery, as well as the Order of the Golden Dragons, honor societies for Venturers and Sea Scouts would be nationally recognized as well.

 

[nolesrule]

Well, then what about letting Cub Scouts in too?