Are they really getting rid of "Pocket Rockets"

[NickP412]

at summer camp i heard a few people in my lodge talking about National BSA putting a end to our yearly pocket rockets. i heard they dont view it as part of our official uniform and dont want it to continue. i liked them and it was a good way to know who paid there dues and who didnt lol.

 

so to those of you know anything about this could you offer some insight? is it just here say rumors or is it really going to be a thing of the past?

 

 

to those of you who dont know what a pocket rocket is heres a link to a picture of one i took

 

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/agravain3/?action=view&current=oapocketrocket.jpg

 

every year we get a new one with the year on it and a new color scheme. theres one for vigil, brotherhood and ordeal. i dont see why they want to ban these? i think there nice and go where the temporary patch go's.

 

(btw i know this past week ive made a lot of threads, i hope you guys dont mind. ive just got a lot of down time at work =/ )(This message has been edited by NickP412)(This message has been edited by NickP412)(This message has been edited by NickP412)

[John-in-KC]

ALLELUIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'm doing the HAPPY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you want to know how I really feel about this?

 

I hope this is true. We never should have had the )(*&^%$$#@! pocket rockets. The Universal Arrow Pin and Ribbon were good enough for us youth member Arrowmen of the 60s and 70s!!!

 

They are DARN good enough for you too.

 

I have made it a point over the last several years, when friends entered our Brotherhood, to give them a present of the Universal Arrow.

 

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[NickP412]

lol i take it your not a fan? i was sort of fond of them. i do however have universal arrow if by that you mean this.

 

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/agravain3/?action=view&current=oathingfornow.jpg

 

if that is what your talking about, i bought one at my scout shop a few weeks ago, i just want to know if they man one for brotherhood?

[skeptic]

Never even seen these; but I would agree that the universal ribbon arrow is all you need.

[emb021]

I have no idea what this 'pocket rocket' is you are refering to. Your link to Photobucket doesn't work.

 

 

I've heard the term 'pocket rocket' used to refer to the universal arrow, but obviously this is something else. But what, I have no idea, as I don't know of anything coming from national with a number and different versions for the 'degrees'.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Yah, the link doesn't work. Must be a local lodge thing...we don't have them in this neck of the woods...just the universal arrow "dangle" that most people don't wear anyway.

[NickP412]

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/agravain3/?action=view&current=oapocketrocket.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/agravain3/oapocketrocket.jpg

 

one of those better work lol.

[jstephens42]

From the picture, this would be a temporary insignia. I don't see why National would care one way or the other.

 

There have been several awards based on the Universal Arrow pin that have come out of National. The Leadership In Service award being the newest. Perhaps they are thinking of no longer issuing those types of national awards in the future.

 

 

 

 

[shortridge]

I picked up a couple of those arrow strips - never heard the term "pocket rocket" before - at a regional conclave back in the '90s. They were white-on-black, and looked really sharp. A conversation starter, if nothing else. And they're worn as temp patches, so I don't see the problem.

[emb021]

Thanks.

 

These patches you are calling "pocket rockets" (I've only heard that term in reference to the universal arrow ribbon) would be treated as temporary insignia. I don't know why National should care, unless they plan on going after the various people making these in red/white & white/black. I'd like to think National has more important things to worry about. Since National doesn't seem to have problems with lodges having programs with beads and the like, why should they care about this (and since they have even highlighted some of the lodge with such programs in their materials to lodges, that would indicate to me they are fine with them).

 

As to jstephens42 comment. The Leadership in Service Award was a program that only lasted for a 3 years (2005-2007), as did the prior program. Since the LiS program ended almost 2 years ago, they have yet to roll out a new program. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Someone in the lodge may be getting confused with with national's 2007 policy of not having designated borders on flaps, i.e. red = Ordeal, gold = Brotherhood, silver = Vigil. I and the youth in my lodge HATE this policy and was glad that the former SE allowed us to exhaust our supply of the current flaps with differing borders. Well it lasted 2 years and we are now about to go to one flap for all. The Lodge will be voting to amend the by-laws to not only have one flap for all, with the noted protest that if national ever rescinds this policy the lodge will be going back to the 30+ year old policy, and will remove the restriction of 1 flap for 7 hours of work. Instead you will be given the opportunity to purchase 1 flap at every lodge workday and Ordeal.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[NickP412]

yeah i dont know why national has a problem with it, it could all be rumor who knows?

[CalicoPenn]

There are two things at work here.

 

As I understand it, National OA has requested (required) that Lodges stop issuing different flaps and patches for Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil - and this would be consistent with the ideals of the Order. They aren't ranks, and they aren't true levels of membership. With the sole exception of access to ceremonies, an Ordeal Member is on equal footing with a Brotherhood Member and a Vigil Honor Member. Brotherhood is a re-dedication to the ideals of the Order - if it means anything, it means that a Brotherhood Member is expected to be first in line when a Lodge or Chapter project is taking place. Vigil Honor is just that - an Honor - a recognition that the Order of the Arrow member is living the ideals of the Order in his Scouting, Order of the Arrow and private life. A different "pocket rocket" scheme for Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil Honor is not allowed. That's part one.

 

Part two is that too many lodges have been marketing the "pocket rockets" as an alternative to the Universal Ribbon (aka Order of the Arrow pocket device - it's called a Universal Ribbon because it is the same design for every member of the Order of the Arrow). The "pocket rocket" is worn on the same pocket button as the Universal Ribbon - but here's the rub - the "Pocket Rocket" is a temporary patch - and you can only wear one temporary patch over the right pocket at a time. If you have a summer camp patch sewed on the pocket, the "pocket rocket" shouldn't be worn because it is also a temporary patch. If you have no other temporary patch on the shirt, then the "pocket rocket" would be correctly worn as it is. BUT - the Universal Ribbon can be worn when a temporary patch is worn (or even if one isn't). The Universal Ribbon can be considered a permanent part of the uniform - youth and adult - once one becomes a member of the Order of the Arrow. Unless they've changed things, you can wear the Universal Ribbon if you were inducted into the Order of the Arrow but haven't paid dues to be active in your Lodge. The Lodge Flap is supposed to indicate paid membership - the Universal Ribbon just indicates that you were inducted. It appears that National OA is trying to reign in the whole "substitution" thing - as they should.

 

BTW, since you asked, there is no Brotherhood device for the Universal Ribbon. The only device for the Universal Ribbon is the Vigil Honor pin. When I completed my Ordeal, my Explorer Post Advisor made it a point of giving me a Universal Ribbon as a gift (in my Troop, the Scoutmaster did the same for those inducted through Troop elections). When I received the Vigil Honor, we were all asked to make sure to wear our Universal Ribbons to dinner - my Lodge then publicly recognized the new Vigil Honor inductees and the Lodge Chief pinned the Vigil Honor device on our Universal Ribbons - I thought that was a nice touch and a great way to publicly recognize the newest batch of Vigil Honor honorees.

[NickP412]

i mean this with all due respect CalicoPenn you said:

 

Order of the Arrow and private life. A different "pocket rocket" scheme for Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil Honor is not allowed. That's part one.

 

 

now does that mean that in the future our sashes wont indicate our brotherhood membership from an ordeal membership? i dont want to come off as rude but i worked hard to get brotherhood, i had to dedicate myself a lot to my lodge before my OA rep would let me petition for brotherhood and i would hate to see brotherhood recognition on our sash's go, it may sound outlandish but it seems like it could be the future at that rate.

 

could i be over-reacting? absolutely i probably am.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Calico,

If memory serves, the Order of the Arrow membership emblem as the insignia guide call it is also considered temporary insignia and cannot be worn with other temp insignia.

 

In reference to the different color borders, many lodges did have rationals for them. I know Croatan has it written into the by laws, and their history pages online gives summaries of the various arguments (in the classical sense of the word) for adopting them.

 

Also as I noted elsewhere, specifically the when to wear the OA sash thread, that at the time most lodges adopted these different color borders, OA sash were restricted to OA events only. Since the 1979 or early 1980s ed. the sash can now be worn more often, ie. at COHs Blue and Golds, and district and council banquets, and the sash can also be worn with the professional dress uniform. Thus the color of the flap informed a person what honor they were when they were not wearing a sash. Since national now allows the sash to be worn more often, the removal of colored borders are a natural, although one that is not keeping with the traditions of many lodges.

 

As for me personally, I will continue to wear the beaded vigil 'dangle" (that's what we called "pocket rockets" in SE Louisiana, that I was gifted.