Parents attending OA Ceremonies

[BrotherhoodWWW]

ThunderFox I'm not sure you actually mean what you wrote. I did find it quite interesting the Urban Dictionary definition for the words you used. Had you actually read all of the posts I have made over the years in this forum you might have discovered that I do think the OA should be shrouded in mystery. I am also very aware of the rules and agree with their purpose, but which rule are you thinking I do not like? Surely not the rule that OA ceremonies need to be safeguarded. I take seriously my obligation and admonition. Parents and others with concerns need to consult with Advisors, and yes if it ever comes the time when I am placed into this position I will try my hardest to encourage parents that are not members to decide that it is not in their youths best interest to watch. Should they not agree after discussion I shal accomodate them as best we can as long as they do not interrupt the ceremony for others.

 

All that said I fail to see how you are getting to a public relations nightmare with this. We are a voluntary honor society within the framework of the BSA. We are by design an intergral part of each council.

[ThunderFox]

Brotherhood,

 

Be sure and wear your White Robe of Honor and a Pious face as you break the rules with a clear conscious. When the OA gets disbanded, maybe you will be asked to pose in your Robe and be the posterchild martyr of the OA!

[SeattlePioneer]

Unfortunately, Brotherhood makes an excellent case and example for shutting down OA. Overinvolved, willfull adult leaders in positions of leadership are something BSA simply can't afford.

 

If he's been able to hold a position of leadership in OA for an extended period of time with the attitudes he displays here, there is certainly something seriously wrong.

 

If Brotherhood would care to e-mail me with his name, BSA registration number or some other means I would like to forward a copy of this thread to the Council Executive of the Grand Columbia Council so that they can decide if some kind of investigation or counseling of this Scouter might be in order.

 

His attitude strikes me as wrong and risky, but that's simply my opinion. I do think the council leadership should be informed so they can decide what, if any, action might be appropriate.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[BDPT00]

Thunder and Seattle,

I'm really curious. When you conduct an Ordeal ceremony, how many non-member guests are in attendance?

And here's a hypothetical question: Little Johnny's dad is doing his Ordeal, and he plans to come back next year for his Brotherhood. Johnny is doing his Brotherhood this same weekend. Dad would like to view his son's ceremony, and get some nice pictures to take home to Mom, so she can put them in Johnny's Eagle scrapbook for his upcoming ECOH reception table. Any advice for Dad?

I know what advice BrotherhoodWWW would give (and so would I). What would you say?

BDPT00

[acco40]

Yes I have children (3) and both of my sons and myself have sealed our membership in the OA (Brotherhood).

 

Part of me wanted to attend my oldest son's Ordeal and to a lesser extend Brotherhood ceremony but I also wanted him to experience those events without me. As his Scoutmaster, and his father, I'm sure he was conflicted on occasion with having "dad" at most of his scouting events. When I had my Ordeal ceremony, he attended. He was very prideful in earning that accomplishment before I did (and that is where I got my real enjoyment).

 

I suggest to all parents who have a curiosity about the OA. Sign-up and meet the requirements to be a candidate. That way you can experience the organization first hand. I'm quite perplexed about all of these rants about "adults running the OA" - they don't. The youth does. As the Chapter Chief states after the Ordeal Ceremony celebration - we have adults attend so that they can go get the donuts and pizza - not to far from the truth!

 

As it has been stated earlier, don't confuse educating an adult on the benefits of allowing his son to experience an OA ceremony without a parent present as some how "banning parents" or in violation of anything.

 

Douglas McArthur's mother followed him to West Point. She got an apartment close enough to campus to be able to see his window. Just because she was allowed to doesn't mean that she should have.

 

Am I detecting a bit of jealousy in these comments? I'm interested in how many of the posters like SeattlePioneer and ThunderFox are OA members?

[SeattlePioneer]

I was tapped out for OA as a Scoutmaster circa 1985 and completed the ordeal. Imaintained my active OA membership as long as I was a Scoutmaster in that troop.

 

 

In recent years I have had other responsibilities, which at this time include being a Cubmaster, district membership chair, Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner, Tiger Twilight Camp Director, Tiger Cub Den Leader Trainer and Unit Commissioner. I have devoted my time to those responsibilities rather than OA.

[shortridge]

A bit of clarification to toss into this ridiculous name-calling thread -

 

There are no such things as "OA adult leaders." The leaders in the OA are all youth. Adults have no vote, with their only authority, such as it is, stemming from their roles as advisors. The only adult member who has a say in a lodge's operations is the Supreme Chief of the Fire.

[ThunderFox]

Of the five OA chapters I have experience with, only one was boy run; and the boys running it did not belong in Scouting at all.

 

When you ask questions of a Chapter Chief about the chapter and whats happening in the chapter and every answer is ask the chapter advisor, its not boy-run!

 

I have no concept as to how my membership in the OA has any bearing on the point at hand; Parents attending OA ceremonies. Seems like another angle from which to cloud the issue by kicking up dust.

 

Youth Protection Training admonishes us to not put ourselves in a position that has ANY POSSIBLE appearance of impropriety. "Mom and Dad, we are taking your boy off into the woods at night for a "confidendial" ceremony and you can't come." Well folks, be careful who you treat that way, you may end up in court, jail or both. All it takes is an accusation against the OA and all adult Scout leaders in the country are guilty by association and Scouting will suffer.

[OldGreyEagle]

"The only adult member who has a say in a lodge's operations is the Supreme Chief of the Fire."

 

Damn, so the decision to host Conclave 3 times and the guy whose WB ticket item was to improve the Camp's Chapel, done by the OA, was all the youth's idea? It's amazing how organized the youth are when they put on their OA hats on because in the Troops they certainly don't demonstrate those skills. When I helped with the Chapel project, I remember working for 6 hours, usually moving around the 4-6 OA Adults who were talking about how poorly planned the project was and how they would do it better. I think the project was fine, it looks good and we have the OA to thank, just not the guys who stood around and didnt work when it was time to

 

Either that or a whole bunch of Flavor Aid is being consumed

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I would have thought the advocates of secrecy might have reconsidered this line of argument in the light of the University of Pennsylvania scandal.

 

The issue is not NECESSARILY that OA leaders will be abusive, but about respecting the concerns that parents might have about such secrecy.

 

Fortunately, this particular tragic episode did not involve OA. If it had or when it does, I imagine that pledges of secrecy of one kind or another will be a substantial part of the story that is luridly spread by the press. The press will publicize the BSA pledge of "no secret societies" and how that pledge was ignored and how ignoring it helped create the climate for abuse.

 

I imagine that all across the country, reporters with visions of Pulitzer Prizes dancing in their heads are combing the country for further evidence of abusive situations that can be used to scandalize the public. It would not particularly surprise me if the OA were used to create a public relations stink, whether any actual abuse was found or not.

 

Frankly, the alleged importance of keeping OA rituals secret is so trivial as to be absurd, in my opinion, compared to the real hazard of creating a public relations nightmare for OA and Scouting.

 

 

[shortridge]

OGE - Sounds like you're confusing lodge leadership with service and brotherhood. Just because an adult organizes a service project or camp improvement does not mean the youth aren't running the show.

 

In my neck of the woods, Conclave hosting rotates among the lodges, with the schedule set - by the section leadership - several years in advance. And all service projects pass through the service vice-chief. An adult member can certainly propose something for his or her WB ticket, but it should be signed off on by the youth in charge of that area and delegated to the interested adult.

 

Adults don't have a vote in the Order. We can make suggestions, but the decisions are out of our hands. We should be stepping back and coaching, mentoring, advising - and just plain serving alongside our brothers who happen to be youth.

 

 

ThunderFox wrote: "... and the boys running it did not belong in Scouting at all."

 

Please, for the sake of educating us lesser mortals: What criteria of yours did they not meet?

[emb021]

"In my neck of the woods, Conclave hosting rotates among the lodges, with the schedule set - by the section leadership - several years in advance. And all service projects pass through the service vice-chief. An adult member can certainly propose something for his or her WB ticket, but it should be signed off on by the youth in charge of that area and delegated to the interested adult. "

 

FWIW, this is true in 'my neck of the woods' as well. All the lodges in my section are strong and very well boy-run. Yes, we have many active adults in the lodges, but all ensure that the lodges are boy-run (tho sometimes we have to remind some of the other adults of this...)

 

 

[ThunderFox]

I was not aware that Scouting or the OA had lesser mortals as members. Not sure I know what constitutes a lesser mortal.

 

As to my criteria of judgement, I have none. Although, I do have subscribed standards of behavior and they are the Scout Oath & Law, the rules of the BSA, the laws of the land and the Ten Commandments and then a bit of common sense.

 

I would say a Chapter Kegger among other similar things would indicate that the chapter leadership should not be members of OA and Scouting. The adult malfeasence is self evident.

[Tampa Turtle]

Lesser mortals have less Forum posts.

[ThunderFox]

"Lesser mortals have less Forum posts.:-)"

 

Ahhh.....another member of the Quantity Over Quality Club!