skeptic Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 An acquaintance sent me this link about a supposed plot to secretly turn scouts in non-Christians. I found it basically silly and amusing; yet wonder if others may have encountered this and what their thoughts are. Here is the link, if anyone is interested. This might be better in the politics section, so moderators, please feel free to move. http://catholicintl.com/articles/OrderoftheArrow-JohnSalza.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 INTERESTING. I've only read part of it, but as a Catholic and a Vigil, i do not see any problems with the OA and Catholicism. I think the person who wrote the article is making much ado about nothing. Especially since he doesn't know exactly what is happening, but only reading a script. As for the ceremony comparisons The Knights of Columbus has similarities to the OA ceremonies, and most frats have them as well. can't speak about frats, but I when I was an active KC, I was 2nd degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emb021 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 My understanding is that one of the main issues that certain Christian groups have with the Masons aren't so much their rituals, but the oath of secrecy which they must make. I know that these same groups don't have issues with my Fraternity (which has rituals) and the OA because we DON'T have such oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emb021 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Let's see. Neither Goodman or Edson were Masons when they formed the OA. I know that Goodman LATER became a Mason, no idea about Edson. AFAIK, our rituals never had a 'blood covenant'. AFAIK, the Brotherhood was NEVER called the "Blood-Rite" degree. We originally didn't have 3 'degrees'. That came later. The OA has changed it rituals over the years. ALL the rituals were re-written in 1948. Am uncertain if they've been re-written since (vs minor tweakes). So getting bent out of shape over pre-1948 rituals seem a little silly. I glanced over his list of similiarities between the OA rituals and masonic ones. I wonder how many might match with KoC? I know many match with my fraternities, but know that others don't match. Considering we have a National Catholic Committee on Scouting, and THEY don't seem to have a problem, who is this guy to pitch a fit? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GernBlansten Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 The writer is in extreme peril. He has desecrated the cloak of mystery of two powerful secret societies. I predict he will be disappeared soon. Actually, this makes me want to become a Free Mason too! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 According to Wikipedia: "In an interview with Carroll Edson during his later years, he recalled that the task of writing the first rituals of the Order of the Arrow was assigned to an early member who was "a 32nd degree Mason." Familiar terms such as "lodge" and "obligation," were borrowed from Masonic practice, as were some ceremonial practices. Even the early national meeting was called a "Grand Lodge," thought to be a Masonic reference. Goodman became a Mason only after the OA was established." Anyone who is or has been a Freemason would recognize immediately the similarities in ritual. This guy Salza is a serious religious fanatic, however. BTW, I took Brotherhood in 1962 and that lodge had only about 2 years before been drawing blood in that ritual. I believe the early ritual books read a little differently in that regard than do the current ones. However, I know lodges had been expressly forbidden to practice that prior to the time some of them actually stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blade1158 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I, like Eagle92, am both a Roman Catholic and a Vigil Honor member of the Order of the Arrow. I read part of the article and must say that the author is a serious whack job. I've been in the order for 30 years and have never seen or done anything that conflicted with my faith or the teachings of the Church. Let's see, brotherhood, cheerfulness and service, all ideas that undermine the tenets of Christianity. I have the pleasure of working with a Scouter who has received not only the Bronze Pelican and the St. George awards, but has worked for many years on the National Catholic Committee on Scouting, is the current chairman of the vocations committee and has received the Silver St. George award for his work on the national level. He is also a Vigil Honor member and a strong supporter of the Order of the Arrow. My bishop, a recipient of the Silver St. George, Silver Beaver, Silver Antelope and Silver Buffalo, has no problem with the OA. I think I trust his judgment over the author's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Of course they're similar to Masonic! Go look at E Urner Goodman's biography. Go look at Carroll Edson's biography. Both were 33d Degree Masons. They had to have some model for their initial ceremonies. I've seen some re-enactments of early Ordeals. Yes, they sound more like Masonic than does the modern Ordeal or Brotherhood. OK. So what? Who cares? This is Scouting, not Masonic, not DeMolay, and not Rainbow. It's our job, as Scouters, to ensure we're not pushing any single faith path. That is the family's duty and responsibility. Next, why are the program materials open to inspection by any concerned teacher, spiritual leader or even parent? Because of the faith matters, in part! I can state reasonably certainly that if the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod assessed the Order as a Masonic spinoff, parishes Nationwide would receive instructions from St Louis to drop charters immediately. Being a member of a Masonic organization as an LCMS member can cause Matt 18 church discipline, up to excommunication to kick in. I'm rather hard over on this. At one point, EagleSon's mother, my former bride, was putting heat on my son as well as on men around him that OA (and Mic-o-Say in my neck of the woods) were Masonic in nature. Further, I was leading him on a path of works righteousness to salvation. Thankfully, several men in my parish are Eagle Scouts and Arrowmen, that got shut down in short order. Let's keep remembering something: OA promotes the CHARACTER AIM through its program use of the Ideals, Personal Growth, and Outdoors Methods. It's our job as Arrowmen Scouters to make sure youth members do not confuse the Order with a religious practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrp1488 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm Roman Catholic, been one since I was born. I'm also OA, did my Ordeal last September. Missed my anniversary so I could attend. All three of my sons are OA. Two of them are Eagles and the third is working on his project now. I have two daughters who earned their gold awards. We have shared scouting since my oldest joined tigers. Seems like we all turned out okay. We are all proud of our scouting accomplishments. Usually don't discuss religion or politics. I tried to access the website that was mentioned to contain the OA rituals. Got nowhere fast. Told me the site doesn't exist. Seems strange it disappeared so fast for an article that was written in 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 "It's our job as Arrowmen Scouters to make sure youth members do not confuse the Order with a religious practice." I'm not sure that this is much of a problem. I've known many youth Arrowmen who did their work religiously (as in the single-minded pursuit of excellence), particularly ceremonialists. But I've yet to meet anyone who has begun active worship of the Chief of the Fire. The only "devotion" the Order stresses is to the welfare of others. That's the true calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 shortridge, You've not heard some of the Sunday Morning worship services at Ordeal Weekends that I've heard. That's all I'll say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMT224 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 A little history to put things in perspective Back in the teens and roaring twenties there were hundreds of honor societies and honor programs that existed in various scout councils and camps throughout the country. In the early days of the Boy Scouts of America many camps around the country had "honor camper" programs where a scout could progressively earn award patches or have totems stenciled on their belt as they became proficient in different skills. Back then, summer camp was a two week affair, and Scouts interested in becoming part of the camp honor society would go through all kinds of ceremonies during the week-end between two weeks of camp. A partial list of these honor societies is below. One of these honor societies was the Order of the Arrow. Created in 1915 in the Philadelphia Council at Treasure Island Scout Camp. It was originally reported as "Wimachtendienks Tribe" then was known as "WWW" and eventually was called "Order of the Arrow". Through the influence of its founders and the OA followers, many of the other honor societies began to convert themselves into Order of the Arrow Lodges. In the teens and twenties there were only a few Order of the Arrow Lodges, but by 1935 there were only 81 Order of the Arrow Lodges out of the 536 Scout Councils and in existence. By 1950 there were still only 537 Scout Councils but 445 OA lodges had by then been chartered. The Order of the Arrow was adopted by the National BSA Council in 1948 as the primary honor camper association. Alpha Phi Omega Aquehongians Black Crescent Society Black Diamond Society Blue Spruce Lodge Braves of Decorah BSA Camp Promotion Society Buckskin Camper Society Buckskin Men Buckskin Son's of Camp Wauwepex Camp Manatoc Honor Patrol Camp Wisdom Honor Campers Chadwick Braves Chi Sigma Society Clan of the Mystic Oak CMR Honor Society Council Fire Circle Elgae Firecrafter Four M Gimogash Golden Tomahawk Indians of Treasure Mountain Indian Tribe of Honor Campers Kanawa Knights of Dunamis Knights of Yawgoog Ku-Ni-Eh Manhawka Mic-O-Say Mikanakawa Tribe Mohawk Indians Moon Scouts Mound Builders Mystic Arrow Mystic C Nani Ba Zhu No-Su-Ca-Ba OOBADOSTOOM Order of the Axe Order of the Black Arrow Order of Nikiwigi Old Guard Old Guard of Glen Gray Order of the Black Diamond Order Of The Chingagook Order of the Crimson Arrow Order of Kamp Kia Kima Order of the Modern Merit Scholars Order of Owls Order of the Arrow Order of Cochipainee Order of Taunkacoo Order of the Blue Knot Order of the Golden Sun Order of the Links Order of the Mystic Circle Order of the Pawnee Order of the Red Arrow Order of the Rising Sun Order of the Silver Marmot Order of the Solo Hiker Order of the Spear Order of the Tipi Order of the Uinta Moon Order of the White Swastika Pathfinders of the Golden Trail Pawnee Tribe Pequoket Pipestone Honor Powderhorn Polaris Lodge(non OA) Red Feather Sagamore Service Troop SA-KA-S-EMBA Scout Legion Scouts of the Mountain Secret Order of the Black Arrow Senior Division Senior Honor Degree Society Sequoia Indians Silver Tomahawk Ta-Tonka-Saba TIPISA, The Order of the Red Lodge Tribe of Ahwanee Tribe of Aquanuschioni Tribe of the Black Arrow Tribe of Chawanakee Tribe of Chickamauga Tribe of Chief Tonnaleuka Tribe of Gimogash Tribe of Golden Eagle Tribe of Gorgonio Tribe of Ingawanis Tribe of Keokuk Tribe of La Porte Tribe of Manatee Tribe of Matilija Tribe of Mazasha Tribe of Mic-O-Say Tribe of Nacopen Tribe of Nikiwigi Tribe of Oh-Hit-E-Kah Tribe of Oljato Tribe of Pahatsi Tribe of Papago Tribe of Pokagon Tribe of Quivira Tribe of Sha Utes Tribe of Sierra Tribe of Siniwa Tribe of Siwinis Tribe of Tahoe Tribe of Tahquitz Tribe of Talako Tribe of Temescal Tribe of Tonkawampus Tribe of Torqua Tribe of Wakpominee Tribe of Wapsipicon Tribe of Winton Tribe of Wokanda Tribe of Yosemite Vi et Consilio Wabiningo Honor Campers Society Wah Tut Ca Braves Wakondale Tribe of Ohiyesa Indians White Bears White Feather Society White Horse Tribe White Sharks of Tahkodah Wigwam Lodge Wimachtendienks Tribe Wincheck Indians Wolfeboro Pioneers Wolf tribe of Medawewin Wonnux Tribe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 John-in-KC, Really? Wow. That's fascinating. I don't ever remember more than a handful of people at our Sunday service, and they were as bland as bland could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willhi1979 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm a Christian, Vigil Member of the OA, and Freemason. The rituals of Freemasonry and the OA are similar, but there are some similarities that used to exist that have been removed over time. The Ordeal (First Degree) ritual prior to 1921 have been lost. The Ordeal (First Degree) Ritual was rewritten by Dr. William M. Hinkle who was a Freemason in 1921, and he also wrote the Brotherhood (Second Degree) Ritual and started the 3 ritual system we have today, prior to that, the Vigil Honor was the Second Degree. Goodman and Edson were not Masons at the founding, but Goodman later became a Mason. There's no evidence that Edson was a Mason. Since that time, we've seen some changes that have made the rituals less Masonic, but there are still some similarities there. It seems like certain Catholics have issues with any society that maintain some level of secrecy, but they have the Knights of Columbus which practices secrecy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmhardy Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yawn....this guy is a crackpot author. In order to sell books and tapes he has to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt into a population of potential customers. He is allover YouTube, blogs and other viral forms of cheap marketing. I'm pretty sure this guy can find a way to portray that the Thanksgiving dinner is a Masonic ritual. I find it amusing. In fact I'll make sure Johnny finds this thread. I'll bet he will comment. Here is the bait. "John Salza", John Salza, Salza, John" "John Salza the author." Now let the search engines spider it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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