Is OA worth it?

[GaHillBilly]

Back in 2001, OGE asked:

"I was an Ordeal Member as a scout, and recently made brotherhood, but aside from impressive ceremonies, and they are very impressive, what else does the OA do? I know what they are supposed to do, I just want to know what they actually do in your area?"

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=2419

 

 

EagleWB answered:

"Its purpose is to recognize campers who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives."

 

 

Mike Long responded:

"The OAs purpose is Service and to promote camping.

. . .

We do have a problem with member retention. To that end the lodge has become less about service and more about entertaining the kids. (To the lodge and orders detriment IMHO.)"

 

 

Before the thread wandered off into never-never land, a number of people talked about how awesome (or not so awesome) their ceremonies were.

 

My son & I are both new to Scouting, and are not in OA. One of the ASM's is really trying to push OA, but I can't figure out why. My son, after watching some singularly unimpressive candidates from another troop be tapped out, announced that, "If that's who goes into OA, I don't EVER want to be in OA!" If I judge on those ground alone, I'd be inclined to agree.

 

My negative impression of OA is reinforced by the fact that the same ASM who's pushing OA stayed with his son, during his son's "Ordeal". And, by the fact that (like some of the posters in OGE's thread) all he talks about is OA's Indian ceremonies. My reaction -- kept to myself -- has been that if I wanted to join the Order of the Red Fez, I wouldn't be in Scouts!

 

It's worked out that I seem to have the opportunity to develop and schedule much of the skills and instruction periods in troop meeting and campouts over the next year. It's likely that I can minimize discussion of OA, simply by saying that we need to keep our eyes on the ball -- which is appropriate basic skill instruction, in the case of our troop. And, that's precisely what I'm inclined to do.

 

But, maybe there's something I'm missing, since I've never been in OA. Ya'll have, and maybe you can 'school' me.

 

 

So, my question is, in terms of the fundamental goals of Scouting, is OA worth the time and energy it takes? How?

 

 

GaHillBilly(This message has been edited by GaHillBilly)

[Eagle92]

GA HB,

As someone who's been an OA member for 19 years and active for 15, IT'S BEEN AN AWESOME EXPERIENCE!!!!!

Like anything there can be problems. I was not initially active because my chapter was not active: no meetings, no newsletters, nothing. It was only when I went back to summercamp and ran into an old HS friend that I found out what's going on and and got active. I have never regretted it.

 

The purpose of the Order of the Arrow is fourfold:

 

* To recognize those Scout campers who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives

* To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit

* To promote Scout camping

* To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others

 

Now do we get some slackers, absolutely. Do some Scouts think it's a popularity contest when they vote, yes. But if you are gung ho about Scouting, then the OA is for you. OA is what YOU make of it, so don't let some slackers discourage you. Alot of times they go through the Ordeal, get their flap, and are never heard form again.

 

Activities that OA do include Work at camp, work at camp, work at camp. Yep that's what WWW on every OA patch means ( although you didn't hear it from me) But we do have some fun stuff. Conclaves are section events that happen every year and are a BLAST They have opportunities for education and fun. No work is involved unless you are host lodge, and that rotates. And even then it's fun. NOAC is held every two years and is a BLAST, think minijamboree on a college campus. It also has a copmbination of fun activities and educational opportunities. Then there is OA Trail Crew at Philmont, Ocean Adventure at Sea Base, and Wilderness Adventure in Northern Tier. These programs allow Arrowmen to got to a high adventure base DIRT CHEAP. Oh almost forgot NLS, and advance leadership seminar that I'm told is great.

 

My favorite is the European Camp Staff Program. Although ECSP is open to anyone 18 to 30 and will pay half your travel expenses, OA provides a campership that pays ALL of your travel expenses, medical insurance, and gives you a $100 per week in the form of a scholarship, if you are 20 and below and in the OA. Wish they had that program in place when I did ECSP.

 

Now I don't understand why the dad was with the son during an Ordeal. Only 1 time I saw that happen, and the son was mentally challenged and I was glad for the extra set of eyes during the Ordeal. usually they separate parents from their kids and siblings from each other. that kinda takes away fromt he expereince if you ask me.

 

While the OA is known for the ceremonies and Native American Dance, I've been involved in both, that is just one area of many the OA has to offer. For me personally once I got active, it gave me a chance to develop with additional leadership opportunities not available to a 19 year old ASM. OA kept me active in the troop, and provided me with growth opportunities that have made an impact with the troop I was in and in every Scouting position I've been in since.

 

I know that there are some unit leaders who think the OA will take their Scouts away. In my opinion, the OA makes scouts better.

 

That's my $.02 worth. Good luck and Happy Scouting. PM me if you have any questions.

[John-in-KC]

Brotherhood ... in a day of animosity all amongst society.

 

Cheerfulness... in an era where cynicism has the floor.

 

Service ... when the overwhelming societal ethic is "What's in it for me?"

 

These are the three gut-check values the Order reinforces. They, along with the Scout Oath and Law, and the Oath of Office, are the ethical touchstones to my life.

 

I've been blessed to have active Lodges youth and adult where the Arrow meant something. Not every Lodge is like that.

 

The Order is about the individual reaching back into his units. It's about the individual growing all the more. In my Council, the Lodge helps young men have more leadership opportunities, more service opportunities, and more Thespian opportunities. I know at least one civil engineer and one anthropology student whose careers were definitely influenced either by camp projects or our use of Native American tradition.

 

I can't tell you about how the Lodge is in your local Council. That's a call only you can make.

[Gold Winger]

Why minimize the OA? Let the members who are elected make up their own minds. Let the Troop OA Rep talk up the OA.

 

Like many things in life, you get out what you put in. If your son is elected to OA, goes through ordeal and never does anything else, he won't get much out of it.

 

On the other hand, if he gets involved, it opens a whole new world for him. New friends. New opportunities.

 

Philmont has a special trail crew program for OA. You go and bust your tail for a week doing trail maintenance and then spend the next week on a trek of your own design without any adults from your troop tagging along, just a couple of young staff advisors.

 

Goshen Scout Reservation in Virginia has a similar program.

 

There was some sort of big trial/service program going on around the country this summer for OA members only.

 

There are no Scoutmasters in OA to try to run things. There are no pesky parents in OA. There are a couple of adult advisors but OA is run by the youth.

 

 

[Dizzy ona cliff]

This last summer was a good example of the purpose and intent of the OA. The story in video and in the words of the media can be found in the following links.

 

http://oa-bsa.org/events/arrowcorps5/index.php?p=onsite/siteinreview

 

http://event.oa-bsa.org/events/arrowcorps5/index.php?p=media

 

[Eamonn]

I'm unsure what sort of yard stick you use to measure worth?

I have belonged to our Lodge for a very long time. Due to the times I worked I was never really very active.

The very active adults at one time seemed to me to be the guys who did all the work at camp.

The work did need to be done, they did a wonderful job, but somehow some way they came off seeming like a private club within the Lodge.

These men were the craftsman who built the new buildings, fixed the plumbing and made the lights work.

Not being good at this kind of stuff, I never really felt like a member of this club.

It wasn't until OJ became really active that I grasped the full meaning of what the OA was about and doing.

Along with the guys doing the construction there was also a group of adults who really understood what the OA was about and who really understood how to work with the youth members.

Like just about anything in life, OA members only get out of the OA what they put in.

OJ got deeply involved.

I think the OA played a big part of him not leaving Scouting, along the way he did hone his leadership skills, he did learn what service to others was about.

I was happy that he met and choose to hang out with a really great bunch of Lads, who were by no means little angels, but were not into any of the bad stuff that lands kids their age in hot water.

The Lodge unlike the Troop he was in, was truly youth led. Of course at times some things might not have gone as well as if an adult had done what was needed, but that's par for the course.

We might be lucky that the Council is not very big and Scouts do tend to get to see other Scouts from around the Council and do get to know each other, which does help the Lodge work a little better.

We have been blessed that the guys who have served as Lodge Advisors do seem to understand the OA and the youth that they serve.

The youth members might not always live up to the expectations of some of the older guys who have been around for a very long time and are not happy unless they have something to moan about.

OJ is now serving on the District Camping Committee. I think belonging to the OA led to him wanting to be a Summer Camp Staff member and this has led to him wanting to serve on that committee.

I handed over a lot of my hard earned cash for him to get involved, he attended a couple of NOAC's, went on the trail crew at Philmont, attended NLS in NJ,spent a small fortune on uniforms.

Was it worth it?

I think so.

Eamonn.

[Tokala]

I've been a member since 1977 so my view may be skewed. Leadership at a troop level is limited. Leadership possibilities for young men in the Order of the Arrow is open all the way through area, region and national levels. Developing the young men to think and act to be unselfish in cheerful service is probably the most important concept in the OA.

 

As with any "club", you're going to get out of it whatever you put into it. I've seen some very talented young men serve as leaders in the lodge level, section, region and national level. We might have not been able to see those young men not reach their potential without the OA.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

".....I will seek to preserve a cheerful spirit even in the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities......" All arrowmen take upon themselves a solemn Obligation that enhances the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law. Their primary purpose in doing so is to give service to their unit.

 

GaHillBilly do you know that the ASM "stayed with his son" or did he merely remain at the ordeal as many Scouters do. The other unit's choices for candidates is beyond your control so why should you or your son be bothered by that. That is just one sterling example why I love the OA; members do not choose who becomes members. "You were elected by those that have lived closest to you, and I congradulate you upon your election!" words of the mighty cheif excerpted from a call out ceremony that the Lodge of my youth used. So true are these words!

 

Others have already mentioned the tremendous opportunities available only to Arrowmen. High Adventure for a very modest price, Sections even have funds available for paying for needy arrowmen to attend!

 

I was elected as a youth. I attained Brotherhood as a youth. I served my unit, Lodge and Chapter as a youth. If it were not for the OA and my involvement it is doubtful that I would have seeked out a Troop during my college years that I served as an ASM. Currently my oldest son is not even elegile for the OA and yet my main focus and purpose in Scouting is the OA. I am a currently serving Chapter Adviser. I'm attending Wood Badge and I am writing my ticket to do what I can to strengthen the OA.

 

A small picture of the thngs the OA does that do not get noticed by those scouts and scouters not involved. In my Lodge we provide needed service to prepare our council camps each early summer. This year we are also contributing money to the electrical lighting renovation of a dining hall used mainly for Cub Resident camp.

[croushorn]

Another testament:

Elected in 1978, somewhat active in the OA. Was a young Eagle that lost the interest in Scouts after the challenge was gone. A great fellowship, a lot of fun, a lot of gratifying work, a lot of friends. But regretfully ignored numerous invitations to join the executive committee. Instead dedicated my year round time to a sport that in the end only left me with damaged shoulders and broken dreams of scholarships. Uncle Sam was my way to college, and that effective ended my involvement with Scouting right after HS.

 

Fast forward 15 years when my Cub is approaching Webs. I get back in the Scouting side and am shocked to find that I don't even recognize my old lodge, flat and no fun anymore. I almost give up on the OA again, but a new lodge advisor comes in, invigorates us and it all opens up again. Some of my dearest friends from childhood come back, plus many new ones that are spreading the excitement. Ive been able to work with some of the most incredible young men; those that had nothing left in Scouting to prove, but they wanted to work on camp staff, they wanted to be in ceremonies, they want to go to Conclaves and NOAC, they wanted to go to ArrowCorps5, community work days, camp work days, camp projects we helped them. We have guys staying active that are long past their Eagle and would otherwise be long gone onto girls and jobs. Guys Ive been blessed to know that without OA would never have been part of my Scouting experience.

 

My son was more interested in playing his three sports than he was Scouts. It was all I could do to get him to hang on until he was voted into the OA. Even after a year of prodding him to get involved and run for an office was still being no fruit until one night the Chief asked him to be on one of the ceremonial teams. Then it all changed. He has made close friends from rival schools, has worked harder than ever, played even harder, has been surrounded with some of the most incredible young men and role models Ive ever seen. He has learned about applying leadership in ways he never could when he was SPL. He has more fun and more challenges than he ever could have gotten with the troop. He deals regularly with many great Scouters he never wouldve known otherwise. He will finally finish his Eagle project this winter almost as an afterthought. He wants to finish it just to get it out of the way (!). Hes lined up to do more camp staff next summer and the following already. He loves camp staff and he loves ceremonies, looking to NOAC, Jambo, and OAOA. For a kid that didnt like talking in front of his troop, he now bellows out Allowats lines with pride and emotion that cant be missed. He will probably run for Chief next year. He wants to go to college in a couple years nearby so that he can stay involved. He said an interesting me to me this summer. He said that he loves the Lodge because we treat them like adults, let them see the outcome of their decisions. There they can get a break from the 11 & 12 year olds. The values and actions are consistent with the law, they get the respect and responsibility in the OA that unfortunately a lot of troops wont trust them with. He was a little disappointed at ArrowCorps when unknown adult leaders tried to treat them like young Scouts again.

 

I cant say enough about what the OA has done for my son, he has gone so much further than I ever couldve imagined. We have more Vigil selections from our troop over the past three years than we had in the prior 50. These guys flourish to the OA long after the Troop has become routine. I keep telling them there is so much more to Scouting than what happens within our Troop, they just need to open their eyes and go try something. Its working because of things like the OA as a stepping stone to those further adventures. I think those that are not in the OA are missing a major part of the Scouting lessons.

(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)

[GaHillBilly]

Thanks for all the responses -- gives me something to think about, for the future. For now, it seems more expedient to focus on the troop. Once things are running better, maybe I should reconsider what to do about OA.

 

Regarding my own son, I'm going to have to think some more. I only have the two data points (local ASM babysitting his son; miraculously advanced (fm Scout rank on Nov. 1 to 1st Class on Dec. 31) Scout elected to OA from another troop), but it would appear that the local OA is not too impressive. I'm leaning toward the idea that he has PLENTY to do within troop, and in the circumstances that exist, all the leadership opportunity he can stand.

 

About the babysitting ASM: Obviously, I wasn't there. However, I was told by someone who was, that he spent the night in his son's immediate physical proximity, against all the rules. And it was ONLY his son who was elected; he was not. This fits in with a council wide pattern of tolerating slackers, bogus ranks and bogus MBs.

 

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

[croushorn]

We separate lodge adults and youth to prevent the helicopters from going into mode. Not afraid to step up and point this out to them either. Most will respect that action instead of talking behind the back, like how you heard about it. I would ask your source if anyone had the stones to say anything to him? Shame on them for not. Dont let gossip taint a great organization, there may be more to the story than either of you know.

At an ordeal a bunch of youth members didnt get up in time for breakfast. By the time they rolled in to the dining hall they werent happy about it. Had a father get in my grill about it. I said they wont make that mistake again, will they? And they didnt. Simple cause and effect lessons.

Another ordeal I was Elangomat for our adult candidates. At a period where we were taking a break from our silence requirement, I was talking to them about the bigger picture lessons and the approach we adults take in our lodge. One started complaining about the disorganization of the weekend and how things should be done. Had it already all figured out. Reminders about being boy lead, then offered to introduce him to the Ordeal master so that he could help plan future ordeals. Invited him to join us at the next LEC where we adults arent allowed to talk unless the Chief has us on his agenda. He started getting it after that and has been a great advisor since.

If taking part in Indian ceremonies doesnt appeal to you, dont assume it wont to the boys. Its our best recruiting tool and when done right, there isnt much better. (Not sure how much more fire we can put into our ceremonies!). Dont relegate their importance and possible benefit to the youth.

There are things in Scouting that Im not so keen on either, but as a leader encourage the boys to make their own decisions with an open mind. Attitudes are infectious, both good and bad. Ours went from one extreme to the other within a few short years just because some of us adults decided it would. Give it a chance and make your own opinion. If it isnt what you think it should be, like everything else, help to make it better.

 

[MichaelOA]

"About the babysitting ASM: Obviously, I wasn't there. However, I was told by someone who was, that he spent the night in his son's immediate physical proximity, against all the rules. And it was ONLY his son who was elected; he was not."

 

Well, for the babysitting ASM, parents are welcome to attend the ordeal to be/watch their child especially if there is any concerns. Now, spending the night closely to his son, I just hope that safe scouting was followed, especially if inside of a tent or cabin, as my council lets the new arrowmen use the camp cabins at the end of the ordeal.

[Crew21_Adv]

GaHillyBilly,

 

 

Greetings!

 

You have read some excellent testimony towards the Order of the Arrow. You have read some great statements about the vision and goals of the OA. Also, an Arrowman's first devotion should be with his troop, then the chapter and lodge.

 

I think all of our forum members would praise you for concentrating on Scouting skills and program within your Troop. That is probably the paramount goal for all Scoutmasters.

 

Don't build a bias against the OA, from only one perspective. See for yourself if OA is worth it. Please also allow the Lodge and Chapter to visit your Troop and promote camping as well as Summer Camp opportunities. Also, please let them conduct an annual OA election.

 

As for your questions, Is OA worth it? and, in terms of the fundamental goals of Scouting, is OA worth the time and energy it takes? How?

 

With my Venturing Crew Officers Meetings, and during my Troop's PLC I request them to "give me about 50 percent work, and about 50 percent fun". I constantly ask, "Did you learn something?", and "Did you have fun?"

 

Regarding your question....

Is OA worth it? I would ask a few youth Arrowmen, Troop OA reps, and Summer Camp Staffers that same question. Did you enjoy the work? and, Did you have fun?

 

As for me, and my own opinion.... OA is definitely fun. Sometimes a Hoot! OA is very educational. OA is worth it.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[fleetfootedfox]

What if you substituted the word "OA" with "Scouting" and your son had said "If that's who goes into Scouting, I don't EVER want to be in Scouting!"? Hmm. Takes on a different light now. There are boys who think that way. In fact, I don't know your son, but is it possible there might be boys who would say that about him? How would that make you feel?

 

But then you're saying you expect the OA to be something special and somehow inaccessible to people you think are undeserving. A lot of people think that, which is why some would like to go back to limiting membership more. Is that what you're saying? Would it improve your experience of the OA if the people you don't like were excluded?

 

Anyway, when we give the boys choices, sometimes they choose differently than we would. In this case, the SM could override their choice, but I hope that doesn't have to be done very often.

[MichaelOA]

Well, you've heard it from the adult perspective now let's hear what this youth has to say. OA for me, has been a big boost in my leadership skills, communication, and social skills, which I hope is something ever parent and scoutmaster wants to see in their kids. Let's dive deeper into those new found skills the OA helped me achieve.

 

*Leadership Skills - Well, as current Ceremony Team Leader, and runnning for Lodge Chief this month, I've had to deal with things that I wouldn't normal see in my troop and can even be more realistic and preparing me for the real world. I had also helped run the Ordeal and with all the issues going on it's something we see more in life, not as much scouting. The OA actually is Youth run, there is no scoutmaster hovering by watching for mistakes or correcting everything wrong. Which is how it is in life, and the OA can better prepare you for that.

 

*Communication - This is a BIG part of being a good leader, and being an overall better seeming person. If you need some work in communication OA is great for you! With Ceremony Teams, Elangomats, Dance Teams, Leadership positions and more, there are just so many ways to help you become a better communicator. Work for months non stop for something like the ordeal ceremonies and to go out there for your first time, in front of hundreds of people, just wow. It really is something, especially when you pull it off nicely. Which is also good for self motivation, and feeling good about yourself.

 

*Social Skills - Similar to communication, but a few extra things. The OA is a BIG group, and full of tons of people. It's a great place to meet new friends, learn something new. Between just seasonal fellowships within your lodge, to a section wide conclave, to the national order of the arrow conference. You can always meet new people, and always some new connection out there for you to make.

 

So, you decide. Do you want to give these new adventures and tasks to your scouts/kids. Is it worth it? And when you decide try talking about the positive parts of the OA you've read here, let him decide based on that if the OA is something for him. But please, don't choose what's best for him, let him decide, and stay behind his decision and support it. There is nothing wrong with helping them out every once and a while with a decision, but don't force things on them, especially something life changing like this can be.

 

W.W.W.

-Michael