Eagle92 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Ok here is a question for you folks, especially you Vigils. Does your lodge allow out of lodge Arrowmen to attend your ceremonies, especially the Vigil ceremony? One of our Vigil candidates has a relative who is also a Vigil and I think it may be a nice touch to invite him to the Lodge Fellowship that will also include the Vigil Ceremony. PM me if you need to. Also see my other post in the safeguarded section. Nahila Nakne aka Eagle92(This message has been edited by Eagle92) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croushorn Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Yeah, not a problem at all. I hope my nephew's future lodge allows his cousins and I to be around to watch his! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Why not? The bond as fellow Arrowmen is lifelong (assuming you keep your dues paid up! :-) ) but lodges can easily change. Sounds like a great way to build some intra-lodge fellowship, and maybe even learn a few things. Can you clarify if this is the policy at your lodge? Most everyone in this forum knows this, but it bears repeating: Ceremonies are not secret. They also are not restricted to Arrowmen - any non-member parent, guardian, religious leader, Scout leader, etc. can attend for the asking. So it seems ridiculous that a lodge would treat its ceremonies as private and bar other Arrowmen. I magine that conceivably - and I don't know if this has ever been raised as an issue anywhere - an Ordeal or Brotherhood member could even ask to observe the Vigil ceremony. They would probably get a more-than-substantial amount of backlash, but I can't see how the lodge (especially the SE) could ultimately refuse them. Personal postscript: After my election and before my induction, I read a Bronc Burnett novel that included a depiction of an OA ceremony. At the next campout, I pestered my Vigil Honor Scoutmaster enough that he sat down with me and explained things - though he left me largely in the dark. I'm very grateful for that.(This message has been edited by shortridge) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willhi1979 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Eagle92, I don't know why you couldn't allow him and invite him to see the ceremony. I'm sure it would be an appreciated gesture. There's no requirement that you have to be in a Lodge to see it's Ceremonies. It's also usually very interesting to see how each Lodge does things, there are some differences in each Lodge. The Vigil is probably the one that I've seen the most differences in the execution, I've attended three different Lodge's Vigils. I've visited another Lodge's Vigil when I was a Section Officer and saw their Brotherhood Ceremony when I was there as a ASM during Summer Camp. YITB, Will P.S. You also might have another Out of Lodge Visitor if I can work out my schedule this year. I'll be at NLATS a couple weeks after your Fellowship, and I might have to do a Troop Committee Challenge class that day for a local Troop. Send me a PM or e-mail, and we can chat. Hope you and the wife are doing well.(This message has been edited by willhi1979) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicki Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Our troop goes out of council every other year - I have been welcomed to attend ceremonies appropriate to my membership (Ordeal one year, Brotherhood the next) in two lodges. My own lodge would allow it. Vicki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 In 35+ years of membership, I've not heard of an Arrowman not being permitted to attend a ceremony within his membership level. I agree with shortridge that ceremonies are not secret, but I'd discourage non-Scouter, non-Arrowman members from attending. The Staff Adviser and the Lodge Adviser can provide folks who have a need to know everything, to include access to the books. Do they need the ceremony itself? To me, it's called using the tool of mystique and mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 I ask because although I've been around my current lodge a while, I'm still learning how they do things. And I don't want to upset some of my folks. Also I emailed my lodge contact about inviting the candidate's Vigil brother from out of state since the candidate served as his younger brother's elangomat way back when, but have not gotten a response yet. I definitely think the brother would come since he showed up to his nephew's crossover.(This message has been edited by Eagle92) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortridge Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 John-in-KC, I agree with you on the mystique and mystery issue, but the fact remains that you can't bar anyone from observing a ceremony or inductions procedure. Parents who are worried about hazing, who've read all the horrible things that have been said about the OA or who have religious concerns have a pretty valid reason to insist on observing a ceremony. That said, I'd wager that the number of non-Arrowmen who've done that over the years could be counted in the very low digits. I've absolutely nothing to back this up, but that's my gut instinct. It just occurred to me that folks outside the lodge see Ordeal and Brotherood ceremonies all the time at section conclave competitions. D'oh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanescouter Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I don't know for sure, but as far as I know its allowed ... I see no problem with it.... Scott Robertson http://insanescouter.org Helping leaders one resource at a time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emb021 Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 "but the fact remains that you can't bar anyone from observing a ceremony or inductions procedure. Parents who are worried about hazing, who've read all the horrible things that have been said about the OA or who have religious concerns have a pretty valid reason to insist on observing a ceremony." John-in-KC wasn't speaking of barring anyone, he was speaking of discouraging them. I have to agree with him. Yes, the OA ceremonies are not secret. But they are not public either. If you have people who have an issue, the first thing is to show them the ceremony books and if they still want to observe, then, yes, you let them. But the ceremonies should not be turned into a public spectacle like a high school graduation where parents and assorted family members of scouts are there to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted August 29, 2008 Author Share Posted August 29, 2008 Ok some clarification. 1) Brother is a Vigil form another lodge. So he's been there, done that got the triangle. i thought it would be nice to include him. One bit of complication I just discovered. Brother may not be currenly registered in OA and possibly scouting. Brother in college and may not have kept up to date with registration. we'll see. eagle 92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croushorn Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I'll probably get pasted for this, but here's how I'd handle it: If he's just coming for the evening, no problem. If he's going to stay for all or most of the two days, then he needs to register with both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docrwm Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 I am not OA. I have not posted here before. However, that the question has been raised and debated about whether non-OA members can come to ANY of your ceremonies disturbs me very deeply. I, for one, really respect that BSA has a NO SECRETS policy. Either OA is a part of BSA and abides by that or..... As for the, rather caviler, suggestion that "just show them the ceremony manuals". Gee, and if they have worries as parents do you honestly believe that seeing your manuals will put their worries at rest? I'm not for keeping my son from experiencing things for himself - I want him to be a strong, straight, man of character. However, I can tell you quite frankly that reading the posts here has raised my concerns about OA not quieted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicki Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 and taking things out of context is a problem. This is what emb posted, "Yes, the OA ceremonies are not secret. But they are not public either. If you have people who have an issue, the first thing is to show them the ceremony books and if they still want to observe, then, yes, you let them. But the ceremonies should not be turned into a public spectacle like a high school graduation where parents and assorted family members of scouts are there to see it. " This is the general tenor of this thread and with this, I absolutely agree. Vicki WWW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croushorn Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Understood Doc; When I was selected for the Vigil honor I was an adult. I hadn't been through a ceremony as a candidate in 20 years. Daggone right I was nervous and not really happy about it. If you have concerns, talk to your lodge advisor or the lodge staff advisor and let one of them know you want to watch the program. Nobody will get excited about it, but if they should, tough. I think your concerns will be relieved by what you see; it is a great ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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