Keeping the Honor in the Order

[Gunny2862]

I think that both ney_a_ti and John-in-KC may both have valid points here.

 

If the OA members running the Ordeal don't take it seriously and are goofing off rather than setting examples then that is the behavior the new candidates will think is the norm when they become members.

 

However the test IS itself a learning opportunity. It is one that can have some external portions graded by others, I refrain from giving examples. But the REAL work is internal and where the candidate learns about themselves and hopefully grade themselves fairly. Their internal reactions to the Ordeal are more for their learning than as results of a test.

 

IMHO, as limited as my experience is here.

[John-in-KC]

Gunny,

 

I agree. ANY TEST is a learning opportunity, done right. I just wanted to make sure that National has said during the 80+years of the Order that the Ordeal is a test of 4 tests!

[FireKat]

I have noticed over many years that people (especially the young) learn more from making mistakes and having to correct them than from just rote learning and reguritating thing without understanding. Error are a good time for explanations to why something is done. Tests can be good or bad depending on who and how they handle the sitituation. A person can be humiliated or instructed. It is up to the adults to set a good example on how to teach.  Initiations used to be a teaching thing then they became someting to humiliate the new people.

[John-in-KC]

One has to look at the process in progression within the Order.

 

The entry phase, Candidacy into Ordeal, is designed to test the mettle of the young man. He's pushed, malice aforethought (or should be). Working even during adversity is a key learning point, emphasized in the meaning of the 3 Ws.

 

The second phase is designed to be introspective. Teaches the youth to look into his mind and his heart, and that a community must share its burdens.

 

The phases must be taken as a whole.

[emb021]

"I have noticed over many years that people (especially the young) learn more from making mistakes and having to correct them than from just rote learning and reguritating thing without understanding."

 

This is known as experiential learning. Facilitation has a big role to play in this.

 

Sadly, there isn't a big use of experiential learning, and its tough to teach people facilitation skills. There are groups out there that use it, but its not as wide spread as it should be. Its used heavily in various outdoor-based programs, but not as much in scouting as it should be.

 

 

[ney_a_ti]

I've had a week along the Superior Hiking Trail in MN to ponder this.

 

Most of our Scouts understand a test as someelse evaluating thier performance and then judging them, like in School. My OA handbook (89 edition, 94 printing) has a similar definition of an Ordeal Master as John's. However, there is something missing in the responsibilities on an Ordeal Master. An Ordeal Master can't fail a candidate. Nor can a Lodge Chief, or even a lodge advisor.

 

Why? Because there is no one that can fail a candidate at the ordeal, except the candidate himself. This is induction principle four: candidate's compliance.

 

However, many candidates that feel under constant scrutiny will be more concern with not screwing up than exemplifying the virtues of our Order, which is what he is supposed to do. The four parts of the ordeal should certainly be challenging, and a struggle, I'm not suggesting they be a cake walk.

 

The problem is when current members feel like they do have to authority to judge candidates, grade them and scrutize them. This can lead to some harsh administrations of the Ordeal, which only feds into the candidate's fear of failure, and not foster a atmosphere of learning more about themselves. Its also interesting that the very first ceremony actually doesn't use the work test.

 

Some might say that what do you do with a candidate that won't follow the challenges, especially the talking one? There are remedies. Talking to the candidates about the serious of the test and challenging him to continue in silence. If the offense continues, a candidate can be put in a clan of one, with only an elangomat that steadfastly refuses to talk. With no one else to talk to, the candidate will have no choice but to comply.

 

My point is that those that simply see the Ordeal as a test to get in the Order aren't getting the whole picture. And this can affect the perception of the OA to its future members. I see this in my current lodge, it is failing becuase the youth leaders treat the ordeal as solely a test, and candidates only see the OA as something where you work and be quiet, and not something deeper and more meaningful.

[ney_a_ti]

I wanted to make a correction to my above post. The word test is in the first ceremony, but only in referenncing a specific symbolic activity. The four ordeal challenges themselves are not referred to as test.

[John-in-KC]

ney a ti,

 

Rest assured the language in the OAHB was dumbed down!!! between the 1965 edition and yours.

 

Each element was specifically called a test!

 

Even then, the Candidate was the only judge of his Candidacy, but one of the key jobs of the Ordeal Master and his Adviser were to identify and counsel those who were not taking the Ordeal with sufficient gravitas.

 

I am offline this weekend, I will post specific quotes next Monday in the restricted area.

[troutmaster]

This weekend we are going to Camp Tahquitz, one of the only council camps without the OA. But, I found out that my original scout camp, long defunct but still there as a church venue, is right next door. The original fire ring, where I was jerked off a log and hauled to the front for a true "tap out" in 1959, is still there from what I am told. Arataba and the Wisumahi Lodge; I will go visit, and perhaps have a moment of silent renewal in the old bowl.