Can OA campout be used as wilderness survival

[gilski]

If a boy needs the overnight camp out for Wilderness Survival should he be allowed to use the OA ordeal camp out for requirements 8, 9 if he follows the guidelines?

 

#8 Show that you can find and improvise a natural shelter minimizing the damage to the environment.

#9 Spend a night in your shelter.

 

Our troop has a no double dipping rule if you are accomplishing one task you can not utilize it to fulfill another.

[Meechgalanne]

I've never heard of a scout doing that before. Knowing very little about the guidelines that cover this, I feel it'd be safe to ask the Lodge chief and Advisor.

[Gold Winger]

"Our troop has a no double dipping rule if you are accomplishing one task you can not utilize it to fulfill another."

 

Merit badge accomplishments are not a troop matter, they are between the Scout and his counselor. Counselors are not Unit Scouters, they are registered with the council so a Scoutmaster's whims cannot or should not affect them. Unless, of course, fraud is involved.

 

That said, one doesn't construct a shelter on an ordeal, one has a sleeping bag, ground cloth and that's it. No caves, no cutting down trees. You sleep where you're told and that's that.

 

I'd say no.

[John-in-KC]

I'd have the Troop OATR explain to the SM & the MBC concerned the tasks of the Ordeal, then crosswalk the WS MB requirement.

 

I think the MB Counselor will find the right conclusion. For me, it's a no brainer, the Ordeal night out does not meet the requirement.

[Trevorum]

This decision would be up to the individual MB counselor and so would not be subject to any "troop rule". However, as GW so rightly observes, an OA ordeal rarely (if ever?) involves creating any kind of shelter, as is required by the MB. If I was the Wilderness Survival MB counselor, I'd say that the Scout has not yet completed the requirements.

 

But not because of a "rule against double dipping", which I see as plainly silly. If the point of such a rule is to discourage cheating, then the rule is almost certainly too broad of a brush. It actually can cause a Scout to violate his oath to be Thrifty.

 

For example, if Billy's school class visits Municipal Court, why should he not be able to use the rare opportunty towards Citizenship/Community #3 AND towards Law #6? Making him return downtown and sit through another session to avoid some poorly concieved (but catchily-titled) rule makes no sense to me.

 

 

[gilski]

I actually posted this again because I could not find the post this AM sorry,

 

I am grateful for the responses. I was not aware a kid should not build a shelter for OA.

 

 

[scoutldr]

I would say no. The purposes of the Ordeal are specific and will be revealed to the Candidate following his/her call-out. The candidate should be inwardly focused on those purposes, and not on earning a MB.

[gilski]

The advice has been great! now I am wondering about our double dipping rule does anyone here agree with that policy?

 

 

[Lisabob]

I think that there may be times when the "double dipping" rule makes some sense, but the problem with any general rule is that there are also times it does not make sense.

 

One example of where I think it makes sense: there are a number of merit badges that require a certain number of service hours. We have a couple of scouts in our troop right now working on the reading MB (4 hours of service), citizen/community (8 hours of service) and Star or Life rank (6 hours of service). We have told these boys that they can't use the same 4-6-8 hours of service to fulfill all three requirements.

 

One of the boys found a nonprofit group where he would spend 4 hours a month for a minimum of 3 months helping with a reading program. He decided, with approval from his 2 MB counselors, to use the first month (4 hours) toward his reading badge, and the second and third months (8 hours) toward his citizen/community badge.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

EagleSon was Star the first year he was eligible to staff district day camp.

 

He worked as J-staff for 40 hours.

 

He requested in advance and then reported 6 hours of that time to his Scoutmaster for service time. He had a Confirmation service obligation to his church of 30 hours. He claimed that too.

 

The event: Yes, touched twice. The HOURS... only once. More than that, his service record continues strong. He'll serve his 3d season as Camp Staff this year.

 

In general, I like to see lots more hours and lots more events than the minimum. When I talk to youth and parents alike I talk about building a lifelong habit of service to others.

[Kudu]

John-in-KC writes:

 

In general, I like to see lots more hours and lots more events than the minimum. When I talk to youth and parents alike I talk about building a lifelong habit of service to others.

 

That was Baden-Powell's intention. For Christian audiences he called Service For Others "Practical Christianity," and used the Buddhist culture of Burma as a prime example.

 

Baden-Powell's Scout Promise has three points, the second of which is "To help other people at all times." It does not read "To help other people six hours with no double-dipping."

 

Counting service hours toward advancement is Fake Scouting. It teaches Scouts to parcel out their Service For Others in exchange for compensation.

 

Counting months of a "Position of Responsibility" toward advancement is also Fake Scouting. Leadership is a form of Service For Others and it should be freely given by Scouts who are truly gifted. These Scouts should be honored, not compensated.

 

Counting hours or months of service is bad Scouting and bad religion.

 

Kudu

[Eamonn]

Kudu

You bring up something that is worth looking at and talking about.

But to do so I think to be fair to gilski and the questioned asked the fair thing to do would be to spin off.

I'm not sure how the Ordeal is done in other Lodges? Wagion Lodge 6, has the Scouts sleep out under the stars without building a shelter.

This might be because as a rule there is a lot of Scouts doing their Ordeal?

While I'm not for these "Troop Rules". Which to my way of thinking never seem to work.

I'm also a little worried that in some ways we become "Bean Counters".

While of course having Scouts set worthwhile goals and allowing them and supporting them as they work toward their goals is not a bad thing.

But when the goal is to seek out short cuts or fast track advancement? I'm not so sure it's a good thing.

The best use of the advancement method comes from having a well balanced, well thought out program.

This at times can be a little difficult when a unit (Troop or maybe a Ship?) is youth run.

At times the SM or person at the PLC does need to plant a few "Seeds" and maybe give a little nudge where needed.

Having Scouts work on wilderness survival skills as part of the Troop program and recording (Take a few photos?) of what they did, so if someone does decide that they want to work on the other requirements?There is a record. Would to me seem a better way of going about this than trying to look for a short cut?

While we should help and support the Scouts who want to work on a particular merit badge, the aim of the Troop should be to provide the best all round Scouting program as is possible.

Heck we have seven years with the Scouts if we can do a good job!

Eamonn

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I guess I wouldn't count it, either, since you're not building a shelter. Plus, you're not really doing OA as a merit badge project. I wouldn't count the OA Ordeal service hours for anything else, either.

 

As for the no double-dipping rule, I can see how that's intended to stop Scouts from seeking out shortcuts and trying to do even less than what might appear to be the minimum. In that sense, I support the rule. In particular, I wouldn't count service hours for multiple Scout requirements. For other situations, I'd want to look at the particulars. I would, for example, count a 50-mile backpacking trip as a requirement for the Backpacking merit badge as well as for the 50-Miler award.

[gilski]

I see the point on the OA. The double dip rule for our troop has not been in the area of sevice hours we have always kept those seperate if you gain 12 hrs for one advancement that requires 6 thats great however the extra hours do not carry over. The double dipping rule has to do with things like if you go to a community meeting for Citz in the community it does not count fo communications. Even if you are currently working on both, you would have to go to another meeting for that.