OA and the Ventuing Program

[ASM915]

I read in another forum site that Crew members are not elegible for OA. I have some questions and thoughts.

 

If a Crew member use to be a Scout and had achieved 1ST Class, why is he not elegible for OA just because he is now a Crew member?

Are not Crew members allowed to work independently of the Scouting Program, on Star, Lifa and Eagle rank without being Troop members?

 

Is not the Venturing Program (and Venture Scouts) a division of Scouting just like the Varsity program and Varsity Scouts?

 

Why doesn't National Lodge set a requirement that Venturers that are not from Scout Troops, have to achieve the level of Outdoor Bronze Award or Ranger to be elected into OA. The Outdoor Bronze requirements pretty much meet all the camping and outdoor skill requirements that TF, SC and FC have to meet. Just make sure that the core requirements for Outdoor Bronze and acceptance into OA are First Aid, Land Nav., Cooking and LNT or Wilderness Survival to meet the camping reqirements. For the elective: Backpacking, Plants and Wildlife and Phys. Fitness. These would cover all the Scouting requirements except maybe the Flag requirements.

 

Does anyone see a reason that National Lodge and Council can not do this?

 

Sincerely,

The Kids of the BSA (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[OldGreyEagle]

A scout who is a Crew member and registered in a Troop may be elected to the OA, as a member of that Troop. A Scout who is a member of the OA and becomes a Crew Member may continue membership in the OA if they drop the Troop registration and only continue in the Crew. The key is being elected by the Troop the scout is registered in when he is eligible.

 

Now, I used to be all upset and crotchety that the OA wouldnt allow Venturing Crew to have elections, but I have a different feeling now. If a Venturing Crew member could be an OA member, you are right, there would have to be some sort of requirements set. The nights of camping would have to stay, I dont think anyone would dispute to get in the Boy Scout Honor Camping Society you would have to camp. Then we could say earn the Outdoor Bronze or some portion of it. A youth must be 14 to join a Crew (and out of 8th grade). To reach the requirement of Camping would take at least a year, maybe 18 months. And then there are the recognitions to earn so lets say that by the time a Crew member can be elected, he is pretty near or at 16 years old. Its just what every 16 year old wants, to be in an initiation rite with 12 and 13 year old boy scouts. There may be some youth that this doesnt bother, but I am not sure it would appeal to the majority. Then there is the Coed issue. Would the young ladies of the crew be eligible as well? We already tell the female members of the Crews that they are equal participants in the Crew, only they can't earn merit badges or Eagle. Now we are also going to say you can't be elected into the OA as well? The young ladies cant be a member of the Camping Honor Society? So, do we let the ladies in?, I am not advocating that at all. Just what a bunch of 16 year old girls want to do is play with a bunch of 12-13 year old boys. OK, maybe the girls can do it. If so, I give it 3-5 years before all the elected positions in the Lodges and Chapters are girls. I say this from my experince in Venturing. Let Boy Scouts be Boy Scouts and Venturing Crews be Venturing Crews. There is no need to mix them into the OA.

 

Then again, thats my opinion I could be wrong

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm with OGE.

 

OA is an honor society for Boy Scouts. We can ask why Venturers or Cub Scouts can't join, but the reason is it's an honor society for Boy Scouts.

 

Venturing Crews are just different. Advancement is not a method. Depending on the crew (like Youth Ministry crews), Outdoors may not even be a method. So OA doesn't work as a Venturing honor society.

 

If there's going to be an honor society for Venturing, it needs to be set up along different lines, not piggybacking on the little boys' OA thing. There were some council and regional attempts at starting Venturing honor societies a few years back, but I'm not sure whether any of them are still operatin'. IMO they were still copycatting OA too much to attract a real following.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Have to agree with both OGE and Beavah here.

 

I will say a couple of things, though:

 

BTW, to Beavah... we have to remember that older youth (17-20) are the core of the leadership for Lodges. They aren't little boys anymore. Most have earned Eagle, many are young adult ASMs. Some have transitioned to Venturing as their primary youth program membership.

 

To ASM915: There has not been a "National Lodge" of the Order of the Arrow since 1947 or so, when the Order was officially brought into the program of Boy Scouting. There is a National Committee of OA, which has young adult leadership (elected through the various Sections and Regions), and Advisors who have great experience with the Order both in their youth and in their adulthood.

[emb021]

"I have some questions and thoughts. If a Crew member use to be a Scout and had achieved 1ST Class, why is he not elegible for OA just because he is now a Crew member?"

 

Because the BSA does not allow OA elections in Venturing Crews. If that crew member obtained OA membership in his troop or team, he may still be involved in the OA, however.

 

This is due to the fact that the OA is now part of the Boy Scout Program Division, which is NOT a co-ed youth program. The Venturing Program Division is separate.

 

"Are not Crew members allowed to work independently of the Scouting Program, on Star, Lifa and Eagle rank without being Troop members?"

 

Male Venturers who have previously earned First Class as a Boy Scout may continue to earn Star, Life and Eagle. This is a continuation of policy that has existed since the 1930s.

 

"Is not the Venturing Program (and Venture Scouts) a division of Scouting just like the Varsity program and Varsity Scouts?"

 

There is no such thing as "Venture Scouts" in the BSA. If you are refering to members of the Venturing program, they are called 'Venturers'.

 

Venturing is a Program Division of the BSA, a division including Venturing and Sea Scouts. Varsity Scouts are part of the Boy Scout Program Division. There is also a Cub Scout Program Division which includes Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts. While all are part of the Boy Scouts of America, they are separate divisions within it.

 

"Why doesn't National Lodge set a requirement that Venturers that are not from Scout Troops, have to achieve the level of Outdoor Bronze Award or Ranger to be elected into OA."

 

As others have pointed out, there is no National Lodge any more. It was done away with in the 1940s when the OA was fully integrated into the BSA. It was replaced by the National OA Committee. The National OA Committee, by the way, is now a subcommittee of the National Boy Scout Committee (originally it was a subcommittee of the National Camping Committee, but was moved over in the 70s). I have heard that there have been proposals within the National OA Committee to open up the OA to Venturers. (supposedly started by the OA youth officers). ALL such efforts have apparently been stopped by the National Boy Scout Committee, in no small part due to the fact that the Boy Scout Program (of which the OA is now part of) is NOT a co-ed youth program. By opening it up to female Venturers is thus a problem.

 

"Does anyone see a reason that National Lodge and Council can not do this?"

 

Again, there is no National Lodge. While the National OA Committee may like to do so, they are apparently not allowed to by the National Boy Scout Committee.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'Council'. Local Councils have no say in this.

 

I can tell you that there are many within the OA who would like to open up the OA to Venturers, both male and female. There are some discussion groups on this topic. The issue is that until the National Boy Scout Committee gives the National OA Committee the power to make this decision, it will probably not change.

 

 

[epalmer84]

The Order of the Arrow is part of the Boy Scout membership division (as are Varsity scouts), thus OA elections may be held only in troops and teams.

 

http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-33.htm

 

The lodge flap may be worn by OA members on any uniform.

 

http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-48.htm

http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-35.htm

 

Historically:

OA elections were allowed in Explorer posts, but women were not allowed to be elected. [OA Handbook, 1986] In 1988, the BSA opened the Scoutmaster position to women. OA membership was opened to female Boy Scout leaders in 1999. Venturing was introduced in 1998, and the OA soon ruled that elections could not be held in crews (there may have been a some elections early on before this was clarified.) This would also apply to Sea Scout ships, as Sea Scouting is part of the Venturing division.

 

There is a movement towards a Venturing service society called the Corps of Discovery. It is in its infancy, but it is used in some councils. The emblem is a patch worn on the right pocket flap.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/corpsofdiscovery/

 

As to why National closed elections in crews and ships, I have no definitive answers. Why Venturers can continue to work towards Eagle without being in a troop or team, but can't be elected to the OA, I cannot explain.

 

Ed(This message has been edited by epalmer84)

[ASM915]

Sorry gents, last night I had an Alzheimeric moment. I knew Lodge was wrong, but the mind just couldn't come up with Committee.

Venture Scouts, alright, their are not Crew members, their Venture Patrol members. Not the same thing, apologizes again.

 

OGE and Beavah,

Sorry I have to agree with John. Most of the leaders are the 16-20 year olds. If it were opened up to the Venturers, yea, not all 16-20 year olds would want to be involved, but you see adults there right beside the 12 and 13 year olds doing grub work. If the 16 to 20 crowd are interested, and yes I see a lot of 16 - 20 year olds be tapped out, they will be there along with the young ones.

 

OGE, as for "let's not mix them", if the Venturers have fulfilled all the equivalent requirements, and meet the age specifications, they are a part/division of Scouting, why not allow those that want to, to join if elected.

 

As for the ladies, they are suppose to be equals, but we are going to throw up barriers? As epalmer points out we already allow females into OA, albeit leaders. So why not the interested V girls. Again if they really want it, they will meet the requirements work along side the boys. Granted for Ordeal Weekend, the Council will have to have female advisers for the girls, but there will probably be female leaders going through Ordeal already. Thanks epalmer, I was going to make a comment about seeing females being tapped out, but I wanted to hold off until I made sure this wasn't just a local Council idiosyncrasy.

OGE, if the boys are to lazy to get up there and campaign/fight for the Crew or OA leadership positions, shame on them. If they think the position, Crew or OA, might be to much work and don't run for the position, or if they do, but half heartedly, again shame on them. Who knows, maybe the ambitious females that might run for an leader position might turn around some of the suffering Lodges. NO, I'M NOT A WOMEN. But since National instituted Venturing as a division of BSA and allowed our better halves in, and they're suppose to be equals, then let's not discriminate. Is this the reason National refuses to let Venturers hold elections, to keep the females out? I'll have to go back to my OA book and look it over carefully to see if the requirements actually say boys/men (oops, there go the female adult leaders), scouts or just elected candidates.

 

emb, when I stated "National Lodge (meant Committee) and Council, Council meant Irving, Texas.

 

As for Cub's being a division of BSA, come on gents, let's get real and not use that as an argument about clarification of divisions. Of course the little guys aren't going to meet FC, camping and age requirements. Venturers sure come damn close though. This analogy is like saying that because Little League (being a division of baseball, a strech, yes) ball players can't be called up to the Majors, therefore AA and AAA players can't be called up either, again because they are in a division of baseabll. Just because a walk-on may have never played LL, High School or College ball, doesn't mean he can't show up and kick some you know what all over the field if he's good.

 

Round 3 tomorrow, same time, same station.

 

Good night until then.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[emb021]

"Venture Scouts, alright, their are not Crew members, their Venture Patrol members. Not the same thing, apologizes again. "

 

Wrong. As I said before, there is no such thing as "Venture Scouts" in the BSA. Period. Members of Venture Patrols are Boy Scouts.

 

"OGE, as for "let's not mix them", if the Venturers have fulfilled all the equivalent requirements, and meet the age specifications, they are a part/division of Scouting, why not allow those that want to, to join if elected."

 

Again, that's not our decision. I know of many Arrowmen who are Venturers. But for what ever reason, National does not allow for elections of Venturers into the OA.

 

"As for the ladies, they are suppose to be equals, but we are going to throw up barriers? As epalmer points out we already allow females into OA, albeit leaders. So why not the interested V girls. Again if they really want it, they will meet the requirements work along side the boys."

 

Again, not our decision. National has decided. National would be the one to make a change. Not us. I have my suspecious as to the reason for this decision, but as I'm not certain its true, I will not say them.

 

"But since National instituted Venturing as a division of BSA and allowed our better halves in, and they're suppose to be equals, then let's not discriminate. Is this the reason National refuses to let Venturers hold elections, to keep the females out?"

 

Keep in mind it was a while before the BSA opened up the final six adult positions to females. Only after that was done did the OA allow female leaders to become Arrowmen. Some OA lodges very quickly admitted female leaders, and they very soon had female Vigils. Other lodges have not be so...progressive.

 

 

 

[emb021]

"Historically:

OA elections were allowed in Explorer posts, but women were not allowed to be elected. [OA Handbook, 1986]"

 

More history.

 

After a similiar discussion about the OA, I checked my collection of OA handbooks and other resources regarding the election of Explorers into the OA. This is what I gathered:

 

OA elections in Explorer Posts continuted until 1991. July Operation Update announced this was dropped.

 

The OA Handbook indicated the following requirements for membership:

1948 OAHB Requirements- 14 years old, First Class or first Senior Scout rank

 

1959 OAHB. Any Explorer, regardless of rank (it was this year that Explorer ranks were dropped!)

 

1965 OAHB. Ditto

 

1970 OAHB. Ditto

 

1975 OAHB. Only male Explorer, regardless of rank. Now OA part of Boy Scout division (prior, National OA Committee under Nat Camping Committee)! BTW, Explorers went fully co-ed in 1971.

 

1980 OAHB. Explorers must hold First Class rank, only male members of Post can vote.

 

1985-87 OAHBs. Ditto

 

1989 OAHB. Explorers must hold First Class rank, but all Explorers vote.

 

[emb021]

"Historically:

OA elections were allowed in Explorer posts, but women were not allowed to be elected. [OA Handbook, 1986]"

 

More history.

 

After a similiar discussion about the OA, I checked my collection of OA handbooks and other resources regarding the election of Explorers into the OA. This is what I gathered:

 

OA elections in Explorer Posts continuted until 1991. July Operation Update announced this was dropped.

 

The OA Handbook indicated the following requirements for membership:

1948 OAHB Requirements- 14 years old, First Class or first Senior Scout rank

 

1959 OAHB. Any Explorer, regardless of rank (it was this year that Explorer ranks were dropped!)

 

1965 OAHB. Ditto

 

1970 OAHB. Ditto

 

1975 OAHB. Only male Explorer, regardless of rank. Now OA part of Boy Scout division (prior, National OA Committee under Nat Camping Committee)! BTW, Explorers went fully co-ed in 1971.

 

1980 OAHB. Explorers must hold First Class rank, only male members of Post can vote.

 

1985-87 OAHBs. Ditto

 

1989 OAHB. Explorers must hold First Class rank, but all Explorers vote.

 

[trailfinder52@yahoo.com]

Venturing in other parts of the country are looking into a program that was proposed in 1999 called the Corps of Discovery this program was proposed by Venturers for Venturers. Now I just became an OA member and I know of a few Venturers who are in the OA but it was because they were elected into the Order when they were Boy Scouts, and the Venturers that are in the OA also hold Eagle which was earned in the troop. But what I understand that if a male Venturer was nominated to the OA while in a troop or team, and even if they leave the troop or team can continue their OA membership as long as they are registered in the BSA. Venturing Females presently are not eligible for OA while Venturers. But when they celebrate their 21st birthday and would become female Scoutmasters or Varsity Team Coaches then they are eligible for adult nomination to the OA either through their team or troop, or if they are on the troop or team committee, as well as council or district scouters. I am a Venturing Crew Associate Advisor, and a member of district committee and I just completed my OA Ordeal this past weekend. But I was nominated through district committee, not my crew. I personally hope for the day that female youth Venturers and all Venturers could do crew elections and be nominated to OA as male Explorers were before 1991.

But until this happens, If Venturers are interested in a honor or service society, maybe then they can work with the COD and make it a program to stand next to OA.

[John-in-KC]

Just a friendly reminder:

 

OA provides not only camping promotion, but youth leadership beyond the Troop. The youth, under 21, ARE THE VOTING MEMBERS.

 

All we old farts (21 years, no hours, no minutes, 1 second and up) are is Advisors. Period.

 

To emb021, thanks: I had not realized that OA was no longer supervised by the National Camping Committee... as it is at Council and District levels.