OA and Venturing

[qwazse]

What is the difference between High-School students voting in High-School students and Jr. High students voting in Jr. High students)? There is no age requirement, only rank(First Class) and experience(10 days and nights camping). If a Jr. High student(11-13 years old) has completed those requirements, what is to keep his "Jr. High buddies" from electing him into the OA?

Well, in our troop very few scouts make 1st class until they are moving into high school. Most of our FYFC's (first year, first class) don't run.

It's 15 camping days which, you're right, does tend to favor Jr. High kids with a more flexible schedule.

High-school boys with only same-school peers for a constituency, have not get elected in our troop.

Jr. High boys who disrespect older boys and boys who aren't in their "special clique" have not got elected.

The boys who command the respect same-age AND different-age peers, they get elected.

[qwazse]

And Jr. High scouts, for the most part, is the inexperienced group of scouts. I would rather have highly experienced and more mature scouts who know what the ideals of scouting look like and are already in the OA, voting in new members.

The Good Book tells me that the Almighty chooses the weak to confound the wise. Go figure.

[qwazse]

And Jr. High scouts, for the most part, is the inexperienced group of scouts. I would rather have highly experienced and more mature scouts who know what the ideals of scouting look like and are already in the OA, voting in new members.

And here's the other dirty little secret about venturing (that I really wish weren't true). The only venturers who are highly experienced and more mature, were the ones who are also boy scouts and about half of those who are also girl scouts. For a lot of them, we are making up for lost ground.

[EagleScout441]

The FYFC boys in your troop don't run for OA? Why not?

"Jr. High boys who disrespect older boys and boys who aren't in their "special clique" have not got elected.The boys who command the respect same-age AND different-age peers, they get elected." Sounds to me like you have 1. a problem with respect in your troop and 2. boys who won't stand up for themselves. And if "special cliques" have formed in your troop, than the patrols need to be rearranged so that the "clique" members are in different patrols. I assume you are in a larger troop, my troop has about 15 that regularly attend and we don't have any problems like that. "The only venturers who are highly experienced and more mature, were the ones who are also boy scouts and about half of those who are also girl scouts" It is true that former Boy Scouts in the Ventures are, many times, more mature. But many former Boy Scouts now in Ventures are not more mature, I have met a now Venturing Eagle Scout who had the maturity of a 2nd year. I have also met several female youth Venturers who are much more mature than most Boy Scouts, who had no experience in the Girl Scouts.. Maturity level varies from person to person. They have more experience because they have had the opportunity to camp for 3 years before joining Ventures.

If Venture Crews don't have that "necessary" younger peer group, why not have the adults pick new members, they are usually(at least in my troop) sitting on the side lines just watching to make sure we aren't hurting ourselves. If anyone would know who has the most experience and displays the most scout spirit it would be them.

PS Thanks for correcting me on the camping requirement, it's 15 days not 10.

 

[gsdad]

The OA does not have to come up with a better reason for not allowing Venturing youth as members as they rules in place suffice. If one wants strives to become an arrowmen, he needs to join one of the BSA programs that allow it. I am not anti-Venturing, my daughter is a member of a crew, and I have met many young women who I think would make fine additions to The Order.

[EagleScout441]

Their rules for not letting Ventures into the OA don't make any sense: 1. They don't let Ventures in because they don't let Ventures in. 2. Ventures don't earn First Class. First class is basic camping skills, Ventures, Sea Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts all learn these basic camping skills(mainly aquatic for Sea Scouts though), Sea Scouts and Ventures just don't learn them for the rank of First Class. In reality, one of their main reasons is probably female youth members.

[walk in the woods]

Well, FWIW, the OA was designed and is an honor society of Boy Scout campers. One of the goals is to use the program as a way to keep older Boy Scouts engaged with their Troop and their Council camps. Let's review the perfect world strategy here. A young man joins a troop at age 11. He spends a year or so working on T21 requirements, probably spends his second year at summer camp before he becomes eligible to stand for a fall or spring election. Maybe he gets elected, probably not, spends a third year at summer camp mentoring younger scouts. Stands for election again gets elected by his peers. Now there is a hook to keep him coming back to his summer camp. Instead of being focused on advancement, he gets to be focused on cool older-scout stuff. Building ceremonial fires, being a ceremonialist, working on camp projects, being the generally cool HS kids that the older kids look up to.

 

So, we know you support electing venturers, but that's not good enough to illicit a change. If you want to see things change then explain how electing venturers to the OA is going to supporting the mission of the OA and improve my lodge?

[qwazse]

The FYFC boys in your troop don't run for OA? Why not?

"Jr. High boys who disrespect older boys and boys who aren't in their "special clique" have not got elected.The boys who command the respect same-age AND different-age peers, they get elected." Sounds to me like you have 1. a problem with respect in your troop and 2. boys who won't stand up for themselves. And if "special cliques" have formed in your troop, than the patrols need to be rearranged so that the "clique" members are in different patrols. I assume you are in a larger troop, my troop has about 15 that regularly attend and we don't have any problems like that. "The only venturers who are highly experienced and more mature, were the ones who are also boy scouts and about half of those who are also girl scouts" It is true that former Boy Scouts in the Ventures are, many times, more mature. But many former Boy Scouts now in Ventures are not more mature, I have met a now Venturing Eagle Scout who had the maturity of a 2nd year. I have also met several female youth Venturers who are much more mature than most Boy Scouts, who had no experience in the Girl Scouts.. Maturity level varies from person to person. They have more experience because they have had the opportunity to camp for 3 years before joining Ventures.

If Venture Crews don't have that "necessary" younger peer group, why not have the adults pick new members, they are usually(at least in my troop) sitting on the side lines just watching to make sure we aren't hurting ourselves. If anyone would know who has the most experience and displays the most scout spirit it would be them.

PS Thanks for correcting me on the camping requirement, it's 15 days not 10.

Not sure why FCFY's tend not to run for OA. Maybe because there are so few of them in our troop and they see those older boys running after they took 4 years to get to FC, and that intimidates them. One boy, who I thought would have made a great candidate quit scouting to devote more time to his video games (really!) so he never came to camp that 2nd year.

 

Our troop is larger than yours and has kids with behavioral disorders. Actually, many of those boys later tell me that the troop (along with junior ROTC) was the solution to those problems. Not getting elected for the 3rd time in a row was definitely the wake-up-call one boy needed. From then on, any foul comment from him I would reply "And you wonder why ...?" No need to fill in the blank, he knew exactly what I meant.

 

You should dive into some of our old patrol method threads to see all the different ways these cliques are handled.

 

We must have met the same immature Eagle scout, several times over! There are always exceptions to the rules. But, I've seen a lot of crews besides my own in the past six years, and I gotta say there are very few who aren't already boy scouts who would meet criteria for arrowmen. So our question boils down to a very small number. That in itself isn't a reason to maintain the current policy. It just gives us a feel of the magnitude of the problem.

 

Why not make the adult leader's choice the only requirement? I think it's a matter of pride among the OA advisors that their youth are elected by a wide range of their peers. Nobody will buy into a double standard. So there will have to be a way that a venturer can get that "360 evaluation" that the average 1st class scout gets when he comes up for election.

[gsdad]

Their rules for not letting Ventures into the OA don't make any sense: 1. They don't let Ventures in because they don't let Ventures in. 2. Ventures don't earn First Class. First class is basic camping skills, Ventures, Sea Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts all learn these basic camping skills(mainly aquatic for Sea Scouts though), Sea Scouts and Ventures just don't learn them for the rank of First Class. In reality, one of their main reasons is probably female youth members.

The don't make any sense to you because you don't agree with them. Venturing and Boy Scouting are two seperate divisions of the BSA, each have different rules, different oathes(for now), oppotunites, and activities afforded to them. The OA just happens to be part of the Boy Scouting program as a youth, and not part of Venturing. It is easy to blame it on the fact there are female Venturers, but it could be coincidental.

 

The OA is not a box to check and move on to the next thing. Are you an Arrowman?

[EagleScout441]

The FYFC boys in your troop don't run for OA? Why not?

"Jr. High boys who disrespect older boys and boys who aren't in their "special clique" have not got elected.The boys who command the respect same-age AND different-age peers, they get elected." Sounds to me like you have 1. a problem with respect in your troop and 2. boys who won't stand up for themselves. And if "special cliques" have formed in your troop, than the patrols need to be rearranged so that the "clique" members are in different patrols. I assume you are in a larger troop, my troop has about 15 that regularly attend and we don't have any problems like that. "The only venturers who are highly experienced and more mature, were the ones who are also boy scouts and about half of those who are also girl scouts" It is true that former Boy Scouts in the Ventures are, many times, more mature. But many former Boy Scouts now in Ventures are not more mature, I have met a now Venturing Eagle Scout who had the maturity of a 2nd year. I have also met several female youth Venturers who are much more mature than most Boy Scouts, who had no experience in the Girl Scouts.. Maturity level varies from person to person. They have more experience because they have had the opportunity to camp for 3 years before joining Ventures.

If Venture Crews don't have that "necessary" younger peer group, why not have the adults pick new members, they are usually(at least in my troop) sitting on the side lines just watching to make sure we aren't hurting ourselves. If anyone would know who has the most experience and displays the most scout spirit it would be them.

PS Thanks for correcting me on the camping requirement, it's 15 days not 10.

Maybe the new rank/recognition system will have a First Class equivalent and will serve as the requirement for Venturers being elected into the OA.

[EagleScout441]

Their rules for not letting Ventures into the OA don't make any sense: 1. They don't let Ventures in because they don't let Ventures in. 2. Ventures don't earn First Class. First class is basic camping skills, Ventures, Sea Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts all learn these basic camping skills(mainly aquatic for Sea Scouts though), Sea Scouts and Ventures just don't learn them for the rank of First Class. In reality, one of their main reasons is probably female youth members.

"Venturing and Boy Scouting are two seperate divisions of the BSA"

So are Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts and yet they both have OA elections.

"It is easy to blame it on the fact there are female Venturers, but it could be coincidental."

Is it also coincidental that Varsity Scouts is also an all male system?

"The OA is not a box to check and move on to the next thing. Are you an Arrowman?"

Yes, I am currently an active Arrowman who will be attending the OA Fall Fellowship of my council. I attended Kodiak Leadership Training, also known as the Kodiak Challenge, this past summer. It is a Venturing camp that let Boy Scout attend this year, having heard what Ventures have to say about the OA is what brought me to my position in this debate. What do you mean by "a box to check and move on"?

[EagleScout441]

"the OA was designed and is an honor society of Boy Scout campers"

1. OA is considered Scouting's Honor Society 2. Varsity Scouts are also allowed into the OA.

"how electing venturers to the OA is going to supporting the mission of the OA and improve my lodge?"

Venturers are older and, for the most part, more experienced than the average Boy Scout. Having Venturers in your lodge will give you better leadership, opinions and views of scouts from another branch of scouting, higher attendance, co-ed membership, and scouts with more high adventure experience, since that is what is Venturing is about, high adventure.

[BadenP]

I have to agree with Eagle 441 the OA is for and should only be for boy scouts, Venturing is not a good fit for any lodge, except maybe for those few crews that are run just like a boy scout troop and not a crew. Venturing has its own unique emphasis and trajectory and that's the way it should be. Since National has set into motion a whole new program for next year( see the Venturing being killed by National thread) who knows what is going to happen.

[qwazse]

Here's a question:

 

If a boy leaves scouting, does he loose his membership in O/A? (Considering some of the machinations of our soon-to-be-former chartered organizations, this may be relevant to more than venturers.)

If instead of multiple registration, a boy transfers to a crew (like E441 was thinking of doing, but maybe we'll talk him out of it ) does he get to retain his membership?

 

Y'all get where I'm going with this.

[EagleScout441]

I have to agree with Eagle 441 the OA is for and should only be for boy scouts, Venturing is not a good fit for any lodge, except maybe for those few crews that are run just like a boy scout troop and not a crew. Venturing has its own unique emphasis and trajectory and that's the way it should be. Since National has set into motion a whole new program for next year( see the Venturing being killed by National thread) who knows what is going to happen.

Maybe you read my posts wrong, I am completely in favor Venturers being elected into the OA, not against it. And I'm hoping that the new rank/recognition system will have some sort of First Class equivalent to help the Venturers get into the OA.