End of Honor groups not meeting OA standards

[nldscout]

After a conversation with a highly place professsional source who just returned from Irving he told me that there are new rules coming relating to Honor Groups in councils.

 

New rule says they all must comply with OA standards relating to Membership, leadership, and organization.

 

Basically if you're not OA it may mean the end of your Group. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[emb021]

Would like to see such in writing.

 

But does anyone find this surprising? the OA has been the BSA's official honor society program for several decades. When they made some changed to the OA a couple of years ago to change it from the 'honor camper society' to the BSA's 'honor society', I had to wonder if something was going to happen to the various non-OA groups, especially in the councils where there is NO OA.

 

[nldscout]

The gentleman has nothing in writing, just what was discussed at the puzzle palace in Irving. Supposed to take 6months to a year before policy comes out.

 

Guess we will have to see.

[Vicki]

Well, it'll be interesting to see what transpires when the policy finally burps out. I'm sure my friends in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say in the council just west of us will be waiting with bated breath (VBG).

 

Vicki

[John-in-KC]

Vicki,

 

One of my Scouting mentors is a Chieftain in that tribe; he's also on our Council Executive Board. I shot Mr NLDScout's rumor to him. He's shooting it to our SE.

 

Note, I said rumor: There is no audit trail whatsoever other than a "he said so." Even so, it's worth checking out.

 

I'm an Arrowman from my youth. I know the benefits the Order brings, particularly for the Scout who is a budding Thespian, or who is seeking greater responsibility than what a Troop can provide. For the young man with initiative and a desire to achieve, the Lodge and the Chapter provide great program.

 

I'm a Tribesman from the past five years. I see the advantage of hands-on MENTORSHIP, which is something the Tribe brings to the table. On rare occasion, Rush has said something true: "Many young minds are full of mush." That is certainly true. Mentorship by experienced adults can help turn the musch into clear thought and coherent action.

[nldscout]

I hope personally that this is not true, Thats why I asked to see if anyone else's pro's had mentioned it.

 

This would I beleive divide councils that have other than OA groups that have cooexisted peacably for years.

[ManyIrons]

From my experience with Mic-O-Say and Mannaseh they'd compare very favorably with OA for "membership, leadership, and organization."

 

Agree with the group -- too vague. "Wait and see" is a good position to take.

[emb021]

"From my experience with Mic-O-Say and Mannaseh they'd compare very favorably with OA for "membership, leadership, and organization." "

 

My understanding is that MOS and the various groups using the MOS program have a 'problem':

 

* they are secret groups

* they are too adult-run

 

 

 

 

 

[ManyIrons]

First let me correct my original statement: "From my knowledge of Mic-O-Say and experience with Mannaseh . . .". I am not a member of Mic-O-Say, but I am an adult warrior in Mannaseh.

 

As to the alleged "problems"

 

"* they are secret groups". No more so than OA, which of course is not a secret group either.

 

"* they are too adult-run ". That's a common criticism I've heard about both programs -- and a common observation of many troops.

 

Neither of those observations are grounds for ending local honor groups.

[purcelce]

Manyirons has got my vote for Grand Poohbah!

 

My two cents on this I too am a warrior in the Tribe of Mannasseh:

 

* they are secret groups - No, there are no secret organizations in Scouting

 

* they are too adult-run - Yes, this is my only "beef" with TOM, MOM format. But, these Non OA Honor Camper groups has merits and I'll support them.

[emb021]

"As to the alleged "problems"

 

"* they are secret groups". No more so than OA, which of course is not a secret group either. "

 

While the OA is not a secret group, my encounters with these non-OA group is they seem very unwilling to share info with adults that aren't part of their org. While I don't want to share OA 'secrets' with youth, as I don't want to spoil their experience, I am willing to explain in more detail about the OA.

 

""* they are too adult-run ". That's a common criticism I've heard about both programs -- and a common observation of many troops. "

 

There is a difference between what a program was designed as and how some implement it.

 

A scout troop is designed to be boy-lead. However, some adults short circuit this.

 

The OA is designed to be boy-lead. Again, some adults short circuit this.

 

My understanding is that MOS was NOT designed to be boy-lead. That adults in MOS have much more control than in the OA. Those with more first hand experience can confirm/deny this.

 

"Neither of those observations are grounds for ending local honor groups. "

 

Sorry, never said they were. They are reasons why some adults may not be sympathetic to these groups.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[John-in-KC]

Mr emb021,

 

If you wish to know more of the Tribe of Mic-o-Say, PM me offlist. I'll be glad to put you in touch with our Professional Staff member responsible for the Tribe. I will also answer some of the questions myself.

 

One thing that these groups bring to the table that the Order does not: $,$$$,$$$.00. Our Council annually exceeds its FOS goals in both the community and family campaigns. Part of this is the scouting network that reaches across the Kansas City metro, called the Tribe. More than a few business relationships in this town happen because we wear hardway or honorary claws.

[ManyIrons]

emb021,

 

Its unfortunate that your exposure to non-OA groups (exactly how many have you approached?) were negative. My experience with the Tribe of Mannaseh was exactly the opposite. As a non-member I asked many questions and all were answered to my satisfaction. This was done over a period of several months via face-to-face discussions or email with at least 5 different members. I'd take John-in-KC up on his offer if you're looking for information.

 

My point about many troops not being boy-run was a tongue-in-cheek observation that if BSA were to become concerned about stamping out the heavy hand of adults they should start with Scouting program instead of worrying about individual summer camp honor societies.

 

As for the who said what. I never said you said anything. But you made two allegations that you cannot substantiate and as such would not be grounds for ending the existence of non-OA camp honor societies.

 

A couple of interesting historical things to note:

 

1. OA was not originally developed as a boy-led organization. It wasn't until at least 1955 that lodges were advised that adults should only have an advisory role, not leadership positions. I can't answer for Mic-O-Say (again talk with John-in-KC), but I've been told by members of the Mannaseh tribal council that role of the youth will expand over time. The program was only instituted here in 2001.

 

2. There was a movement in the BSA during the early 1920's that "camp fraternities be discouraged". That movement failed, but the Chief Scout Executive at the time (James West) advised the founders of the OA not to "push the expansion". It wasn't until 1934, that the national council formally approved of the OA and the complete integration of the order into BSA didn't begin until 1948.

 

As to the original purpose of this thread: If and when national implements a policy toward local camp societies it can be dealt with then. For now, I'll just wait and see.

 

[emb021]

"One thing that these groups bring to the table that the Order does not: $,$$$,$$$.00. Our Council annually exceeds its FOS goals in both the community and family campaigns. Part of this is the scouting network that reaches across the Kansas City metro, called the Tribe. More than a few business relationships in this town happen because we wear hardway or honorary claws."

 

I don't think that is true with the OA anymore.

 

Now, this may very from council to council (and lodge to lodge). But as part of the new Strategic Goals of the OA put in place a few years back was that the Lodge was to help out the council financially. Now, down in my neck of the woods, this was no big deal. Many of the lodges around here already do this.

 

* Lodges present James West Awards to members on an annual basis (1-2). This means $1000-2000 into the council endowement.

 

* Lodges fundraise for their own campership programs to enable more youth to go to summer camp.

 

* Lodges fund their OWN improvements at their council camps, improvement in the several thousand. I know of several camps in my area that have very nice camp fire areas (with lights, sound systems, benches, etc) due to the hard work of their lodges.

 

So, a LOT of Lodges bring in money to their council. Now, is that true everywhere? I doubt it. May be why they added it to the goals, to get other lodges doing what some/many were already doing.

 

 

[flyingember]

The current chief scout executive is a member of mic-o-say as were the previous three.

 

I doubt the other programs will ever go away.