Vigil Knot??

[John-in-KC]

Wisuhami,

 

I'm appreciating your thoughts on this more and more. Having read Eamonn's comment (in another thread) about how his James E West knot opened doors at the National Jamboree, it may well be we are over-awarded as adults. We're supposed to be getting our value added from seeing these kids make it. I have a friend ... more a mentor than a friend. His uniform has his AOL, Eagle, religious award, and Scouter knot. BTW, he holds the Beaver among other things...

 

There's supposed to be mystery in the Order, for the sake of the young men who have not yet joined us. Do decorations really add value to the mystery, for the sake of future Ordeal candidates? I challenge all to really think on that.

 

YIS/ICS/F&W, John

[Wisumahi]

Hi, John-in-KC!

 

Thanks for the kind words. However, we may be in the very small minority. I have so many examples of what I believe to be over-awarding and going too far in the OA/Scouting. In my lodge (and many others) one is give beads of various colors for attending events. These are then strung on a necklace that one wears to OA events. In addition, things like pouches are added when one attains Vigil. I cannot express properly how foolish I think a 50 year-old looks wearing a necklace with all sorts of beads and fuu-fuus on in it. I mean, seriously, is that truly behavior that should be emulated by youth?

 

I know a Scoutmaster who is just a prince of a man: he wears just one knot--and he can wear more-his Eagle. However, when you talk to him about his adult experience as an SM, all he wants to talk about is how many Eagles have sprouted their wings in his troop. I guess he reminds me of my late, sainted SM...

 

But do not get me wrong: I think we should recognize the wonderful adults who work with Scouts. And recognize them regularly for their great service to youth. I just do not think we should plaster all those awards on adult uniforms.

 

In Brotherhood,

 

Wisumahi

[emb021]

Sigh.

 

Those who complain about others wearing the knots they are entitled to say more about themselves then they realize. And its not always positive.

 

There are some who choose to wear all the knots they are entitled to. That's their choice. This can be positive or negative.

 

There are some who choose to wear only some or certain knots they are entitled to. That's their choice, too. This can be positive or negative.

 

There are some who choose not to wear any knots. Again, that's their choice. This can be positive or negative.

 

I leave it to others to decide for themselves as to what they will wear regarding knots. I only care that they wear them properly.

 

I have always felt it inappropriate to critize others for their choices as to what knots they wear. We may not know what their reasons are, and it might NOT be for show or to brag.

 

 

Now, the original question was to having a Vigil knot.

 

I am a Vigil. I do not see the need for such a knot, and I have yet to hear a valid reason for one.

 

The purpose of knots are to display the awards we have earned or received. If there already exists a way to do this on our uniform, then knots are not needed. Thus, there is no need for Wood Badge knots (except for maybe Sea Scout leaders), Vigil knots, or Founder Award knots.

 

Indication of receiving the Vigil Honor is shown by the wearing of the Vigil pin on the OA ribbon (or Founder Award ribbon). Some Lodges have a bead necklace program, which some have included some kind of vigil triangle (mine does with a german silver triangle with my vigil name & date). These serve the purpose for me of indicating I am a Vigil. Thus I have no desire for a knot.

 

[Wisumahi]

"I have always felt it inappropriate to critize others for their choices as to what knots they wear. We may not know what their reasons are, and it might NOT be for show or to brag."

 

Hi, emb021!

 

I guess I was not clear: I am not critical of the adults who wear all those myriad of knots. I am critical of the BSA for creating the opportunity. I think the BSA encourages an inappropriate display of awards on adults by having such awards in knot form. I also think it diminishes the importance of one of the most important things a Scout can achieve, the award of Eagle Scout.

 

That said, I am also critical or lodges that have all these beaded geegaws and jimcracks to string around members' necks. My goodness, do we really need to look like some refugee from Mardi Gras as an indication of participation in OA events? You see, I like something more subtle and emblematic of the solemnity that I associate with things like Vigil: the perfect example is the one you mentioned, the small triangle that can be attached to one's OA pocket ribbon. Tell me that is less classy than a bunch of cheap beads and other ornaments strung on fake sinew or whatever other type of string is available that day.

 

Well, I sorta felt I would get some slings and arrows for my retro-view of Scouting awards. But, just step back and take a look at today's uniforms and all the places we can put patches, etc. With the exception of the back of the shirt, there is hardly a barren spot left. Honesty, is that an improvement over the traditional uniforms of 50 years ago that I wore? If you have never seen such a uniform, look in an old "Handbook for Boys". Sometimes elegance is not at all complicated, but rather, understated. And sometimes elegance says it all.

 

Remember it is still called BOY SCOUTS and not adult scouts.

 

In Brotherhood,

 

Wisumahi

[John-in-KC]

Wisumahi,

 

OK, I'm on point with you. It's way too much to expect perfect altruism (especially from me), thus plenty of adult recognition is a tool in the box for retaining Scouters

 

Even so, putting much of this recognition onto the uniform, or coup thongs (and I have two, one from the Lodge and one from Mic-o-Say) may be unnecessary.

 

Worth thinking on.

 

YIS/ICS/F&W, John

 

 

[Wisumahi]

John, you wrote:

 

"It's way too much to expect perfect altruism (especially from me), thus plenty of adult recognition is a tool in the box for retaining Scouters."

 

And I am fully on board. We cannot RECOGNIZE Scouters too much. They are wonderful folks who are devoted to helping young men along a pretty rocky path to a useful and fulfilling adulthood. I think we should take every opportunity to recognize the men and women who go the extra mile for our youth. Every opportunity and then some!

 

However, let's do it in a dignified and adult-appropriate manner. I love the example of the small triangle on the OA ribbon. How much more dignified and appropriate that is compared to a bunch of beads and pouch or whatever hanging around one's neck.

 

To recapitulate, all I am saying is save special places on the uniform for a few and very special awards. And what more special than the highest award that a Scout can EARN, the Eagle?

 

In Brotherhood,

 

Wisumahi

[Herms]

Can't agree with Wisumahi about the whole knot thing. We live in a much different world then when you and I were Boy Scouts. I have a couple different uniforms, one with all of the knots and a couple without. The boys love the knots on an adult and I think it adds a little respect for your expierence. If you look at the kids of this generation they love lots of sight and sound! Ask almost any boy if he would rather do lashings or work on a computer and what is his answer?! The young adult leaders of today are the same way. If I can get more help and attendence at activites (where WE can teach the Oath and Law) by giving them a few pieces of cloth or a couple pretty beads, I'm giving them. Vigil knot, sure why not (no pun intended). If a young man will go the extra mile and provide more "Cheerful service", I'm all for it.