Vigil Knot??

[CalicoPenn]

MVScouter has presented an idea in another thread I thought deserved its own thread (hope you don't mind me borrowing from your thoughts on this MVScouter).

 

What do people think of a suggestion to create a Vigil Honor knot?

 

MV Scouter (who is also a Vigil Honor member) suggests (in a reply to a reply):

"As to the Vigil knot, it was my thought to have the Vigil knot as a replacement, if some so choose to do, for the small Vigil triangle.

An honor that prestigious should be adequently displayed on the uniform...I have the support of the Council Executive (the Supreme Chief of the Fire) and our Lodge Chief is not against it, so I can't be that far off base. I don't know your age, but the few people I've talked to, it's the long time scouters that are not in favor. It must be too radical. I feel the small triangle does not honor the award as it should be. I like the other ways other Lodges show what OA honor a scout has. There are many. This idea is just mine."

 

My thoughts on this are that since the Order of the Arrow already uses a ribbon to denote membership (when a lodge flap is not worn) and that there is a triangle device for that ribbon that denotes Vigil Honor, that this is enough. In the discussion, it was mentioned that some lodges issue a different flap to its Vigil Honor members (I believe with a different border color).

 

I had also stated that the knots are for awards earned, not bestowed - though as has been pointed out, their are knots for District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, etc - awards that are for the most part bestowed (though also in some respect earned) so I'm willing to accept that this argument is off base.

 

What do other people think? Should a Vigil Honor knot be created? The Order has been around for a long time - surely this has been considered long before - any ideas why there isn't already a Vigil Honor Knot?

 

CalicoPenn

(also a Vigil Honor member)

[John-in-KC]

Back in the day, we were supposed to keep our status in the Arrow to "amongst us Arrowmen." Now, we have miniature sashes ... but we can't belt our sash anymore. Some Lodges have coup thongs that are to be worn at all Scouting events ... but do we really concentrate on cheerful service?

 

We have folks advocating National software hopefully compatible with ScoutNet... but their credibility is suspect because they set a speed record at "sod surfing" of 45MPH. We also have a sworn member of the Uniform Police, who cannot keep his nose, WHEN HE IS SERVING AS A UNIT LEADER, out of other units' uniforms.

 

Mr CalicoPenn, I'm sorry. If there be a vigil knot at all, it should only be for those YOUNG MEN who earned the Honor while serving as a youth member.

 

Let's remember why we adults are in the Order: To provide advice and support to the YOUTH MEMBERS.

 

BTW, Mr CalicoPenn, the shot three paragraphs above is aimed at your fellow vigil, not you.

[sst3rd]

Vigil is a level, not a rank.

 

Why do we have to have another method of Vigil recognition?

 

What's the "pay off? Is your ego not being fed enough?

 

Have you forgotten what the OA stands for?

 

For crying out loud, leave it alone and work on making your unit the best it can ever be. The energy you're putting into this baseless crusade, should be put into your unit's program.

 

So, I guess by now, this Vigil member has made it clear where he stands. Youth or adult BSA member, needs no additional Vigil recognition. You don't look for the Vigil, the Vigil looks for you. Do the program !!!!!!!

 

WWW

 

sst3rd

[CalicoPenn]

I've been opposed to this idea (and I remember discussing this idea back in the early 80's with people in my Lodge - I suspect this idea has been kicking around for longer than that) but John-in-KC may have hit on something that could swerve me into another direction. Vigil knots for those who received the honor as a youth.

 

The Order doen't have ranks, and all members are to be treated equally - that means no special privileges for Vigil Honor members. Other than the differing sashes, there should really not be a separate lodge flap for Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil Honor members. I had thought to use that argument to oppose the creation of a Vigil Honor knot when I realized that the ribbon triangle does, in essence, a similar function to a knot.

 

On the other hand, compare the number of Eagles awarded per year in a Council versus the number of youth Vigil Honor inductees per year - it could very well be said then that Vigil Honor might be considered pretty prestigious. On yet the other hand (shades of Shiva, perhaps) I've always considered the Vigil Honor to be recognition of exceptional service to one's Lodge and community - and that should be recognition enough.

 

CalicoPenn

[Kahuna]

As one of the old farts who doesn't want anything too radical to happen , I've sort of ceased to care about square knots. Like many other things in scouting as well as the military, more is not necessarily better.

 

As a Vigil Honor OA (lapsed) guy, I always thought the OA was losing something of its mystique by having too much sash-wearing and other paraphernalia. It was conceived to be somewhat like the Masonic orders (and, in fact ritually based to some extent on them).

 

Yet, the OA serves a vital purpose in the lives of many teen Scouts, since it's the bond that keeps them in scouting. The fraternal aspects are less important than the social as far as they are concerned. I don't know that a knot for Vigil Honor would add anything to the honor of being a Vigil.

[LodgeChief]

I don't think that he is trying to add more honor to the Vigil. Every Vigil Honor member receives a triangle device upon completion of their vigil. I think that what he wants to do is eliminate the device and change it into a knot. The only knot that the OA has is for those members that have earned the DSA award. I see nothing wrong with changing the device into a knot. It's so that egos are boosted, because you are already wearing the device to signify you are a vigil member. You're not creating "more" persay because the device is already there. That's just what i think. Maybe you should write to the National Office, maybe include a petition or something, and see what happens from there.

[Wisumahi]

Brothers,

 

I would head the opposite direction and eliminate nearly all the knots! Sometimes, when I go to an event and see all those knots, I think that Boy Scouts should be called Adult Scouts. After all, nost are earned as an adult!

 

My opinion is that we should have knots representing Eagle, Silver Award and one or two more that are truly significant to what one earned as BOY. An adult can be proud of his acheivements as an adult and take great pride in helping to make men grow up to be fine adults without having to display all sorts of ribbons on his chest.

 

There is a pejorative term for a soul who wears a uniform with excess foliage on it that refers to various superior officers from other countries. I sometimes feel like it would apply to a number of Scouters...

 

Just one old man's opinion. Come forth with the slings and arrows!

 

Wisumahi

[purcelce]

I know this will open the flood gates but here it goes:

 

I hold the Vigil Honor in higher esteem then Eagle, WB, or any other Scouting achievement or award. Go for the knot!

 

Cary P

Eagle 81

Vigil 84

(WBer sometime next year when I finish my ticket)

[Wisumahi]

Hi, Cary,

 

One question: does not having a knot make you less proud?

 

And a few comments:

 

(1) The two are so very different. Eagle comes mainly as a result of one's own efforts. Vigil is entirely in the hands of other folks who judge one's contributions.

 

(2) I earned my Eagle in 1956 and was honored with Vigil in 1959; I value both, but Eagle represented such a wonderful learning experience that I hold it in higher regard.

 

(3) One item I have also pondered recently is whether Vigil should be like Eagle and just presented to youth? Adults would be given a different award to recognize their contributions. I guess it comes down to my current belief that Boy Scout awards are looking too much like Adult Scout awards.

 

Wisumahi

[purcelce]

"One question: does not having a knot make you less proud? '

 

Hola Wisumahi,

 

If they have a knot for most everything else, then why "knot" Vigil?

 

I got Vigil at age 17 and Eagle at age 15, so I got both as a youth. I hold the Vigil honor higher than Eagle. Eagle is nothing to sneeze at, it is an amazing accomplishment to anybody who earns it.

You can't earn Vigil, Vigil is an honor!

 

 

[Wisumahi]

Hola, Cary, que tal?

 

"If they have a knot for most everything else, then why "knot" Vigil?"

 

Actually, what I said was that I would do the opposite: eliminate most of the knots entirely. What I think would be more appropriate is to have Eagle, Silver Award, Arrow of Light, and, possibly, the heroism-related awards as the only knots. All the others, as far as I can tell, are for adults and I see little reason to have so many adult-oriented awards on BOY SCOUT uniforms.

 

I think adults should get their satisfaction from seeing fine young boys turn into fine young men as a result of adult efforts--and leave the foliage on the uniform in a drawer or on the wall at home. Of course, I come from a generation when our Scout uniforms had much less adornment on them. I was a Scout in the 1950's and, believe me, the most decorated Scout's uniform was pretty barren compared to today's least decorated Scout, it seems.

 

One more thing to consider: if only a few knots were allowed, it would make them much more important and really tell the world that they were truly meaningful.

 

In Brotherhood,

 

Wisumahi

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Lest you forget, there is also the youth religious award knot. Qualifying religious awards earned as Cubs, Boys, or Venturers are LIFETIME AWARDS.

 

Dare you not, after listening to Mateu in ceremony, forget that Twelfth Point of the Scout Law!!!

 

In Friendship and Warmth, and In Cheeful Service...

 

John

[Wisumahi]

"Lest you forget, there is also the youth religious award knot."

 

John,

 

Mea Culpa! Thanks for reminding me. They were not available when I was a Scout and,so, were not on my horizon. And, yes, they, too, would fit what I think is appropriate: awards earned as a Scout.

 

In Brotherhood,

 

Wisumahi

 

 

[MVScouter]

Since I am the guy proposing the Vigil knot idea, I will respond further. First off, my proposal was directed toward my Council Lodge. I sent out a few e-mails to various scouters I knew to get some feedback on the viability of a Vigil Knot. Some were for it, some against. As I stated before, the then Council Executive of Indianhead Council liked the idea and was willing to support it. In a future message, I will relate some of his thoughts. Remember, he is a professional scouter and he has the authority to make it a reality. Had he not supported it, I would have dropped the idea right away. Now my council and Viking Council have merged making us the 4th largest BSA council in the United States. So with that in mind, this proposal does take on more significance. However, if implimented, this would be accomplished on a council level, not national, unless our Lodge Chief goes further with it.

 

Vigil Honors for youth only? Does that include the Founders Award also? What about the Disinquished Service Award--for youth only too?

I received my Vigil as an adult, and yes, it may sound crazy, but I too value the Vigil honor more than my Eagle award. As a youth, I did not have the maturity or life experience to fully comprehend the significance of my Eagle honor. I do now, and having been the recipient of Vigil as an adult, I feel much more reverance for what the Vigil honor represents. What's wrong with taking pride with one's accomplishments. If the end result of my efforts makes a difference in the life on just one scouting youth, I can certainly take pride in that. My son, who is 15, may not fully comprehend the importance of living and practicing the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life, but someday he will. The Vigil honor is an extension of the Oath and Law, just like the Eagle award. If I want to display this pride on my uniform, would any of you condemn me for that?

 

I will post another comment on the Death to Uniform Police topic as to Uniform Inspections. If their are any UC's out there, check your Unit Commissioners Manuel and tell us what it says on that topic.

 

 

 

[Wisumahi]

Hi, MV Scouter,

 

You wrote, "Vigil Honors for youth only? Does that include the Founders Award also? What about the Disinquished Service Award--for youth only too? "

 

I guess I was not clear enough. I have been advocating eliminating all knots, save those earned as a Boy. I felt that Scouting is becoming excessively adult-award-and-display oriented. I did not say that we should eliminate adult awards, just the ostentatious display of those awards on the left chest. I actually feel that more appropriate awards for adults ARE the Founders' Award and the DSA.

 

Further, you wrote, "I received my Vigil as an adult, and yes, it may sound crazy, but I too value the Vigil honor more than my Eagle award. As a youth, I did not have the maturity or life experience to fully comprehend the significance of my Eagle honor."

 

It is a shame that you were not able to appreciate the true value of the Eagle. I remember my Eagle Court of Honor in 1956 very well: the Court was for the Eagle and Silver Awards only. There were just a few of us. We were really made to feel special. In addition, our Council had an Eagle Dinner every year and, again, we were made to feel very special. Further, so few Scouts earned Eagle that the oval emblem on one's left pocket really stood out. I have never checked the statistics personally, but we were told back then that less than 1 percent of all Scouts ever earned Eagle. That really made an impression on me...even at 13 years of age.

 

So, if I sound like a curmudgeon, I apologize, I just feel that we spend too much time and effort awarding adults for what is a boy's activity. It seems to me that adults should get their joy from helping youth, not from wearing awards.

 

In Brotherhood,

 

Wisumahi