Funds Raisers, how much money is too much money?

[le Voyageur]

Odd question, hey?

 

But has anyone given this side of the coin any serious thought about the downside of a unit with too much money....

 

Here's why the question....but, before proceeding a small story for those who may think I'm blowing smoke. A non scouting organization that my wife volunteers for was doing the typical fundrasing thing, selling calendars, sodas, hotdogs, etc. etc. Hence, working hard, but not making much money. Threw out an ideal and the wife liked it. That was 8 months ago, and now they are on their way to earning several million dollars for their organization.

 

Now, I've another ideal for a fund raiser which could yeild for our Venture Crew's coffer, a bank account in the high 6 to low 7 figures in one year....but before presenting this ideal to the Crew, I'm dragging my feet a whole lot to ponder the negatives....thoughts?

[Scoutmaster Ron]

my thoughts?....how did you do it what was the idea you gave your wife...but seriously great job..you could set up your own camperships for summer camp.

[eisely]

When fund raisers become goals in themselves they are out of hand. Several years ago in a different town, the folks running the PTA at our elementary school one year went hog wild on fund raisers for no reason. There was no idea or vendor that they turned down. They totally burned everybody out. Set a financial objective based on the program needs and work towards the objective. Anything that overshoots that objective should not be done. Fund raisers also need to be evaluated in terms of their payoff in relation to the effort and risk. Some fund raisers just don't make that much money. Manage your volunteer resources as if you were paying them and ask yourself if a particular idea makes sense.

[dsteele]

Interesting question. It applies differently based on the status of the organization. There are rules for 501 © (3) organizations -- like Scout councils than there are for units. Check with your local council fund-raising professional or Scout Executive for clarification and application of BSA rules specific to that fund-raiser.

 

I've served one pack who bought a dump truck (with pack funds) based on their profits from a well-run popcorn sale and specifically for moving their gear around for outings as well as picking up their popcorn. Unbelievable, but not against the rules.

 

I've served a troop that had nearly $50,000 in cd's in the bank. Again, not against the rules. Another had a ton of money in its treasury.

 

In all cases, while their funds were not against the rules, there was a lot of in-fighting in those units over control of the funds as well as philosophical debate over what the unit should pay for and what the parents should pay for and what the Scouts should pay for.

 

At the same time, the BSA has definate rules about fund-raisers. The most pertinent are found in grey type on the back of the unit fund-raising permit.

 

For example, I recently got a collection call from a fund-raising company. The unit had ordered "scratch cards" from the company and hadn't paid for them. By the way, that's not a council problem, that's a problem for the credit rating of whichever unit leader signed the contract.

 

I did a little homework as to what the "scratch cards" were and found that we never would have approved it as an appropriate fund-raiser. The idea is that the unit buy scratch cards, like lottery cards. They offer two types -- donation cards and candy bar cards. In the case of donation cards, the Scout asks folks to scratch off a square. What's underneath is the amount of the donation the person has to make. It varies from 5 cents to $3.00. in the case of the candy bar card, you scratch off to find out how many 50 cent candy bars you didn't buy from the Scout and then give him the money.

 

Sorry. Doesn't fly. No value received by the donor. The council can ask for outright gifts because it has a license for fund-raising in such a way. It is also a 501 ©(3) organization recognized by the state and the IRS.

 

One final piece of advice -- don't mess with the financial rules. Check if you're not sure. Financial issues can spill out of the BSA and into the court systems very quickly and you might find yourself on your own quickly.

 

The above paragraph is not directed at Le Voyageur. It's just general advice.

 

Le Voyageur, from a council perspective, I'm curious as to what the fund-raiser is. Our endowment fund could use a charge . . .

 

DS

[saltheart]

Too much money? Yeah, I'd side with those who might think that a troop can, indeed, have too much money. IMHO, fund raising should be target specific. A troop running any type of fund raising effort(s) should have a real target for the money raised, not just the idea of having tons of money in the bank. Therefore, as much as it might not be against the rules, I'd never approve of an effort by my troop to raise money so that it could have $50,000 in CD's.

 

The policy we've maintained over the years, the good ones and the bad, in as much as we could keep to the target, was to raise sufficient funding to run the troops basic program...awards, ceremonies, some trip subsidizing (but not a lot), equipment, etc. Our target budget was about $5000 a year. And our written and stated goal was to spend all of it, each year, for the scouts who earned it. Of course, we had a separate account with an extra $1000 for emergency equipment replacement, repair, things like that. But beyond that, none of us felt comfortable with raising money for the sake of seeing how big a pot we could raise. We were quite comfortable with what we had, and we used it well. Special situations and circumstances arose from time to time requiring extra funding, and we attended to that on an as need basis.

 

We were (and still are) quite fortunate to have a group of alumni parents who no longer had sons in the troop who were always there to help when necessary, though. Every year that I can remember, we had Scouts who had needs beyond the normal...Dad lost his job, family circumstances not good, separations, divorces, and those who were just plain really needy. And for those folks, this special group always had money to burn by way of donation to the troop to help those in need in the troop family. No questions were asked. Special circumstances. Special methods employed to keep issues and needs private. No embarrasment for anyone.

 

That's where the monies came from and how they were spent. And we still follow that. It works for us, and the money is just enough. Guess I'm not sold on having too much more than enough. But, that's just me.

[le Voyageur]

Thanks all,lots of good advice that is much needed and that I'll heed (taking notes), if you've got more thoughts feel free to post, as I've seen good units, and friendships wrecked over money squabbles...better to let the ideal die on the vine then to loose a unit...

 

As for my wife, the organization she volunteers for raises money for FeLv research (Feline Lukemia, a retro virus akin to the human AID's virus, the goal is to crack it's DNA and find the Achilles heel) ....being a backpacker, I suggested cat pup tents for a product line. For the now the contracts have been signed, and soon they'll be carried in 90 Wal Mart stores....

[Bob White]

Excess money usually oocurs when units make fundraising a goal and then develop a program based on the money they earned, rather than planning a program then determining the budget that would be needed and planning fundraisers to support the budget.

 

The BSA recommends that fundraising should not be the program but should support the planned program. Because of this the vast majority of money raised should be spent the year it was raised on the scouts and families who were in the unit that year. See the video "the Ideal Year of Scouting".

 

Excessive funds are dangerous. They are a temptation for abuse and all to often the emphasis on maintaining a big balance becomes more important than spending money on program and resources.

 

Something to think about.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[jbroganjr]

Bob White

do you have supply number on that video. Look it up on scoutstuff but could not find it.

 

tx

j

[OneHour]

If a troop or crew or what have you earns so much money (say in the 6 or 7 figures range), then why not set up scholarship foundation for Eagle Scouts in that troop or for scholastically achieving scouts or for needy scouts? In our District, our Urban scouts don't even have enough money to purchase uniforms! There are so much that can be done for BSA, locally and nationally. Money seems to be the only problem. So I don't see a problem or a downside! Heck if your crew or troop or anyone who needs help with spending your excessive fund, I'm fairly sure that there are scouters on this forum will be more than gladly give you a name or two to contact.

 

"Excessive funds are dangerous. They are a temptation for abuse and all too often the emphasis on maintaining a big balance becomes more important than spending money on program and resources."

 

Those type of people shouldn't be in scouting!

 

[SMT376Richmond KY]

Well, our Troop is brand new and are "Cash Poor" we would be more than happy to assist your wife in her delema. Actually we are having our first fund raiser this weekend. A car wash so if your near Union City Kentucky and need a car wash come by the fire department and help the Troop out.

[Bob White]

"Those type of people shouldn't be in scouting!"

 

That's the point OneHour. There are a lot of people who are in scouting who shouldn't be, so it is immportant to follow the program and heed the recommended practices. They come from nearly 100 years of experience.

 

Bob White

 

[le Voyageur]

Bob,

 

Much in agreement with you, and a lot of others on this board...and I think purcele on another thread (Issue's and Politics section, re., Rules for Adults) nailed it solid...

 

my plan is to listen to the pros and cons being presented here, and hopefully to have the wisdom to follow the advice that comes from a broad range of experiences....it's why I said, I'm dragging my feet as I want a scouting program ran by scouts. Not a money program running scouts...

 

 

 

 

[LauraT7]

"In all cases, while their funds were not against the rules, there was a lot of in-fighting in those units over control of the funds as well as philosophical debate over what the unit should pay for and what the parents should pay for and what the Scouts should pay for. "

 

having just come through two years of such infighting, to the point where it hurt the boys and the troop (which has a 80+ yr history) to the point of almost dissolving the troop - I can tell you - that scene AIN'T pretty!

 

We lost friends, reputation and boys in that squabble - and in the end, came out a stronger and better troop - but it took alot of time and energy away from the BOYS.

 

Our situation came from a small group that wanted to hold funds for the purchase of a new bus, and our treasurer was the leader of this faction - we had over $8,000 sitting in a fund which most of the committee was not aware existed, and yet we were told that the troop did not have funds to replace tents, rusty cooking gear, or to buy paddles and life jackets for the canoes we owned. We had done a number of good fundraisers, and yet the boys were paying $30 or more for each 1 night campout. If a boy applied for a campership - the help came from the council, not from the troop. Only 1/2 of the troop popcorn money went into the boys accounts - and we only sold once a year - few raised enough to make a dent in their summer camp fee.

 

with the changes in the troop - we are now working on a budget - which is tough from the poor records that were kept. We are also putting ALL popcorn money into boys accounts (because it is tracked so easily) and some other fundraisers are going to boys accounts as well. We will have specific fundraisers for specific goals - such as our upcoming JLT carwash to sponsor the boys attending JLT. the whole troop is supporting the boys that attend. if they raise enough, the boys attending will not have to pay ANYTHING for their training. if they are short - they will divide the shortage equally, if they are over - it will be noted and saved for next years' JLT camp.

 

We have a lucrative annual fundraiser that brings in anywhere from $3000 to $7000 - a portion will be allocated to the accounts of the boys that work - by the hours they work, and the remainder will go into the general fund for repairs, equipment, licenses, etc.

 

We have some community opportunities that are fun as well as fundraising - working the snow-cone booth at the fair - those will be allocated to boy accounts or special use as needed. But we will not be doing 'grab at anything' fundraising again! we got burned out a year ago trying any fundraiser that came our way - what a waste of effort! and most did not raise much!

 

lauraT

 

[Eamonn]

My old Troop back in London, England, was one of the early London Troops, started in 1909. As far as I know, things went along ok, for many years, your normal troop with times of high membership and times when things looked very gloomy.

There are no chatered partners in the UK. So over time the troop moved, from meeting in church halls, and for a while met in the Scoutmasters garage.

When World War 2, broke out most of the adults went to serve in some branch of the service.They did manage to keep the troop going, and kept everyone in touch via a troop newsletter. All the members came home, except one. This poor chap died in a Japanese prisoner of war camp.

The troop committee met, and decided that there ought to be a memorial. And what better then our own scout headquarters.

They worked their tails off raising money.

In 1966, the Scout Headquaters was dedicated to the memory of William Burnthwaite.

But now there was the upkeep of the building, so they kept up the fund raising, but now they could use the hall to help bring in the much needed money. This brought about the birth of the Bingo Committee and the Olde Time Dance Committee. The Hall was also rented out every sunday to the Jehovah Witnesses, along with the odd Wedding Reception. Now the money was rolling in.

As a Scout in the Troop, I was proud that we always had the best equipment and we were the only troop with two mini-vans.

Things were not so great when I became Scout Leader. I felt that this was the Scout Headquarters, the Bingo Committee and Old Time Dancers, started thinking it was their Hall, and the Jehovah Witnesses complained about the Scouting Posters on the wall and the Flag. There I was with this great Scout Headquarters, which I wasn't able to use for Scouting, due to the fact that everyone else was using it. To make matters worse, as the "Old Committee" grew older they started to resent the amount of money that was being spent on the boys.

The Scout Headquarters is stll there to this day, sad to say now showing signs of age. It is in a very trendy part of London, a part where the value and price of property has skyrocketed.

Most of the people who now live there do not have kids. The parks, where I played on the swings and on the Scoccer field, no longer have Swings or Soccer fields. And there sits the "Scout Hall" Worth over $5,000,000.00. Yet it is struggling to survive, due to lack of Scouts.

Iam a trustee of this building, and if something can't be done to keep Scouting alive and keep the Scout Group running, it will be sold and the money will go to the Scout Association.

I don't know if this is too much money. I don't even know if 40 years of service, is a fair return for all the time, effort and hard work these people put in. It took 20 years to build it. I do know, that thanks to them, I had the best time any Scout could ever have had.

 

[LauraT7]

A classic example, Eamonn, of something taking on a life of it's own and obscuring the original purpose.

 

We ran into a similar thing with a daycare renting rooms in our church - and then complaining about the sunday school invading "their" space, church posters, crosses and Jesus pictures on the walls. Luckily we had a firm pastor and grounds committee that pointed out that they should never forget the purpose of the building was to glorify God - not the daycare.

 

in a nutshell, that is the problem - as long as the purpose of the fundraising benefits the BOYS for things that THEY truly want to do (not stuff the adults want FOR them) then it's OK. If it gets to the point where the fundraising becomes the only program, or the boys are getting burned out in fundraising projects and not seeing tangible benefits from it (new equipment, trips, activities, training) then it's too much.

 

Laura T