O.A. campouts and adult leadership

[spider]

I need some advice in reference to Order of the Arrow camping events and adult leadership. The G2SS states that 2 adult leaders are required for all campouts. The SM handbook repeats the same requirement and adds that this applies to provisional troops and Order of the Arrow as well. Some of the leaders in my troop have been told by "someone" from our Council that OA is exempt from this rule. There are a number of leaders in our district that claim they were told the same thing but no one will say who told them. Maybe someone with OA experience can give me some advice on where to go with this.

[Bob White]

"The G2SS states that 2 adult leaders are required for all campouts."

 

That's not entirely accurate. There are two passages from the G2SS that would be applicable here. The first is

 

Two-deep leadership.

Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

 

The OA activities always have Two adults present and so they are keeping with the policy. But this is not a Troop activity. Unit leaders are no required to attend OA activities. The parents are responsible for determining if the scout should attend without a local leader or parent. Keep in mind if the Scoutmaster did not feel the scout was mature enough to attend an OA activity without a unit leader or parent then he or she should not have approved the scout as an OA candidate.

 

The second passage from the G2SS is Two-deep leadership:

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required.

 

Notice that patrol activities are not sited as the only instance when Adults are not required, it is just one example. The OA is another situation outside of the normal troop operation where the charter organization is not required to be responsible for insuring two deep leadership. remember the scouts in OA were hopefully chosen for their maturity and camping skills.

 

Hope this helps.

Bob White

[Overtrained]

Spider,

 

Bob is correct in the letter of the law.

 

As a chapter conclave advisor for the last three years though, I believe it is detrimental to the OA to have only individual participation at all events. If the unit doesn't support it by their active participation, then the message to the Scout is that it isn't important. They won't complete their brotherhood and in the end hurt the lodge so they can get their "ticket punched". In the past we had candidate's showing up without units to go through their Ordeal. There was no one that they knew to celebrate their achievement. Our tracking showed they were hard to convert to Brotherhood, even when the Elangomat kept in touch with them.

 

So, to your question - can they: Yes

Should they - (In my opinion) No

[acco40]

I'm confused by your response Overtrained. I thought that OA events were for just that, OA members (conclaves, ordeals, etc.). So how could a Unit attend? I encourage all OA members in our Unit to attend but they don't attend as a unit.

 

Now I have seen some boys go overboard in OA and leave their troop behind (adults too). Your first responsibility is to your unit.

[nldscout]

Acco40,

When The OA has an event our troop OA represntitive polls the boys and adults as to who is going and registers all those attending. We usually travela s a group and during ceremonies such as ordeal or brotherhood try to get max attendance to support our OA brothers.

 

In addition we the OA memebers of the troop meet periodically to prep the Ordeal members for brotherhood when its time.

[eisely]

BW's information is helpful, but still does not provide a definitive answer. It is certainly correct that there are usually more than two adults present at any OA activity.

 

Are tour permits required for an OA event? I don't think our lodge files tour permits. I have been the adult nominally in charge at two events and tour permits were not on the checklists I was following and I did not get any. While both the youth and the adults are supposed to be more mature and responsible, one would think that a tour permit would be a logical requirement. If tour permits were required, then you would have to have two real names. Still not sure....

[Overtrained]

Acco40,

 

"Your first responsibility is to your unit."

 

You are absolutely correct. That is the purpose behind OA. But without the unit OA members (youth and adult) making an effort to stay active in the OA, that purpose can be lost. The effort may be as simple as making sure the troop doesn't schedule an activity on the same dates or that if it is the same date they attend the same camp where the event is going on.

 

NLDScout caught my sentiment. My troop and most in my district do the same as his. There are two troops who are newer and just had their first OA members go through the Ordeal this past weekend.

 

The Elangomat Chairman and Advisor talked with the Scouts and asked if they knew any OA members. One had a friend at school who was an OA member in the neighboring district. They asked him to come to our event to support his friend. He did.

 

The other Scout did not know an OA member. We asked him if there was someone he'd still want there. He said his father ( a unit leader). His father did come and worked on projects with the members and was there for his son at the Feast. I think that scout will become Brotherhood and his father will definitely promote the merits of the OA to his troop.

 

ps His father did not participate in ceremonies or chapter meetings.

[KoreaScouter]

It's not always the unit and the OA Chapter that aren't coordinated. My son's a Den Chief, and an OA member. The next ordeal, which he'd like to help with, is the same weekend as his District Den Chief training, which will only be offered once. He's going to the training, after making a tough decision.

 

Tour permits are more than a CYA. They help a leader plan, since you have to fill in driver info, itinerary, Safe Swim info, contact info, and so on. OA may not be a unit-level activity, but it is a BSA activity. Why would GTSS policies that apply to a Scout at a Troop outing not apply to him at an OA activity? Why wouldn't a council require a Tour Permit or similar documentation to ensure the activity leaders planned it properly and are following BSA policy?

 

Whenever I see a subgroup of people, regardless of the setting, operating under an assumption that they aren't subject to the same rules everyone else is, alarm bells start going off.

 

As a Scoutmaster, I encourage all my Scouts to participate in every element of the program and all District/Council activities, wherever they take place, in whatever setting. I do this because I know that there's one set of rules, and that everybody is supposed to be following them. The unexpected will happen, and in that case, I continue to depend on adult leaders to make adult decisions and judgments. This doesn't negate the maturity or responsibility levels of the Scouts involved. Our credibility is our stock in trade; parents loan us their sons to go out into the wilderness because, in part, we're following a set of rules that we told them we're following when they registered their boys and we handed back the Information for Parents part of the application. Those parents will make no distinction between a Troop, District, Council, or OA Chapter activity. You either did what you said you were going to do, or you didn't.

 

If any Scouter told me that there was GTSS language that didn't apply to his unit or activity, I'd pull out my copy and ask him specificially which sections and paragraphs he was referring to.

 

KS

[eisely]

Korea Scouter (or should that now be Hawaii Scouter?)

 

I share your concerns about the tour permit question I have raised with regards to OA events. Presumably all the G2SS rules apply to OA events as to other scouting events. In particular I would presume that YP guidelines also apply.

 

One of the difficulties with the tour permit for OA events lies with the form itself. The form is designed for unit level use. Who signs the approval on behalf of the "committee".

 

There is probably no way a responsible OA adult member can begin to know who is driving since participants are coming from all directions at different times to the same destination.

 

Keeping in mind that the whole idea behind the tour permit is risk management at the council level, maybe the risks associated with OA events are deemed to be so low that nobody is concerned.

 

I do note that our lodge (properly so) is now requesting much more comprehensive medical information from participants on the registrations forms we use. That is certainly a good thing.

 

Not wishing to seem sarcastic, but where is Bob White when you really need, and would appreciate his expertise?

[Eagledad]

Hmm, this got me thinking about the requirements for our JLTC. When we sign up for the camp, we have to provide a list of adults and their training to the council. We are required to get a medical form from each scout, not sure how comprehensive it is. If we use in of the camp facilities like the swimming pool or rappelling tower, then we have to provide a list of adults so council can verify they are trained and approved to be responsible for those activities. We don't provide the drivers information because the parents or scout leaders bring in all our participants. I don't provide a Tour Permit for each course, but Council gets all the same information, infact I would say more. And I know our professional is watching that we dot every i and cross every t. I know all our Council OA activities go through the same process. I don't know about district.

 

Good Discussion.

 

Barry

 

[Bob White]

I have never heard of individuals participating in home council activities needing Tour Permits.

The tour permit asks for the type of Unit, suggesting it is for Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews.

 

DS do you know of individuals such as OA members, attending an activity but not traveling as a troop, needing to file a tour permit?

 

Bob White

[spider]

Thank you all for your prompt and comprehensive replies. I understand Bob White's point, the OA leadership should provide the adults necessary for supervising the OA function and our OA boys should be experienced enough to handle themselves properly. Most of the problem lies with the lack of information given to the rest of the troop that is not involved in OA. We are told that's the way it is and not given any reason, as if that part were as secret as the ceremonies. The troop committee is still nervous though because WE do not know who the leaders are and if there will be enough attending to ensure proper supervision. Another problem is that some of our OA boys have gotten the idea that since they don't need the adult leadership for OA functions, they don't need it at troop functions and chafe at the additional restrictions required such as tour permits and permission slips. I am not happy either, that OA functions do not require a tour permit, but the tour permit itself states that it's not required for local council property -presumably if they are on council property council should know about it already. We haven't run into a situation where our OA boys have gone to an OA function that has not been held on council property.

[NeilLup]

To respond to the original question, there might be another possibility.

 

G2SS says that two deep adult leadership is required for an outing and at least one must be 21 or over. Presumably that means the other could be 18-20.

 

However, for OA purposes, a person is not an "adult" until they are 21. So for OA purposes, a person 18-20 is considered a youth.

 

So on an OA event, one could have one adult (age 21 or older) and one "youth" age 18-20 to provide leadership and still meet the letter of the G2SS.

 

As far as the matter of patrol outings, etc. I one time did verify and the rules mean what they seem to say. It is, under some circumstances, acceptable to have zero adults at a campout. It is certainly acceptable to have two or more adults at a campout. It is never acceptable to have one and only one adult at a campout.

 

Confusing? You bet it is. But this is, after all, the BSA.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

[NWScouter]

I would place an OA event on the same position as Council level JLT or Cub Day Camp, both require YP but do not have indiviual unit tour permits. Adult leaders in both must not be one on one with youth. For example if you (an adult) are going, then you should not bring a youth alone in your car if he is not your son. You could bring two, three youths or more youths depending on seat belts. At the event adults and youth sleeping aragements will be seperate. One of the roles that a tour permit plays to inform the council of your unit's activity. An OA event is a council event and the OA LEC and advisors are responbile to plan and inform the council.

[dsteele]

NW is correct. Individuals attending a local OA conclave/fellowship, etc. do not have to file a tour permit. The event is a council event.

 

However, if a troop organizes a "contingent" or group of individuals to attend the OA event together under the leadership of the troop -- it certainly couldn't hurt to file a tour permit, although it would not be required by national rules.

 

If a lodge were to organize a contingent to attend a Section Conclave -- I would advise filling out a tour permit and simply writing "lodge contingent" in the box where unit would normally be marked. I would advise the lodge to file a tour permit if it is organizing a contingent to attend NOAC as well.

 

I hope this helps.

 

DS