Eagle Scout ScoutMaster Conf - "Face The Nation"

[jyoklavich]

I thank all of you for your support. At this time my son is finishing up with his finals in school this week.

Next week, he will fill out the paperwork (yes, paperwork with this troop) to have his Scoutmaster Conference. I know he will spend some time reviewing the Scout Book, which I think is good. I will help him on anything he thinks I need to review with him.

 

ON another note, I attended the Troop Committee Meeting. At the end of the meeting, I raised the issue that I wanted to Troop Committee re-emphasize that they are following BSA Policy and Procedures. The Troop Committee emphatically looked at me and said this Troop follows the BSA Policy and Procedures 100%. I only made the statement, let make sure our Scout Master Corp understands the basic procedures for Advancement.

 

Now, if my son goes to these gentlemen, and does not pass ( which I still think there is a small chance), then I will raise some holly hell. But, on the otherhand, if he pass (which I am sure he will) then after I know that he has gotten his Eagle BOR, and all the paperwork is Absolutly done, complete, and in solid stone. Then, I will make it a point, that NO other scout has to be TEST in the matter our scouts have gone through to get Eagle. At that point, I have nothing to lose.

 

YIS,

Joe

[jyoklavich]

After several months, my son had his Eagle SCM last night. He was in front of 4 Scoutmaster. I was out of town. He was asked to come back. I email the SCM and asked "What Happened"

 

His reply was : "We found errors in the paper work. Advancements said one date and merit

badge cards said another. Would have been caught at council. Will corect and resume scoutmaster conference. Joe does not know his first

class skills!!"

 

YIS

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I have emailed the District Advancement Chairman with :

During the Eagle Scout Master Conference, can a boy fail if he does not know 100% his Tenderfoot, Secound Class, and First Class skills ? Can the Scout Master continue to ask for follow up conference(s) until he ace's these skills ?

 

Is this in compliance with National Boy Scout Policy for a Scout Master Conference.

 

Please keep this email content between you and me for right now. I respect and look forward to your thoughts and comments.

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I will keep this discussion forum informed, I encourage you to continue to give your insight and help. YOu have been a great support team.

Thanks,

joe

 

 

[jyoklavich]

One more comment: He was there for 2 hours, he prepared weeks/days in advance. My wife said he looked great and was very proud. I have repeatly ask my troop to review the paperwork. Why this was not covered just burns my butt.

[mk9750]

Joe,

 

This sure seems to be way over the top.

 

4 Scoutmasters? How many does your Troop have? Or were some ASMs? Even if they were, why do they need 4? This is a SM Confernece, which means the boy and the SM, not the boy in front of a bevy of adult leaders.

 

Postponment based partly on lack of basic skills? I don't think so. Our SM always reviews a few basic skills in a conference, even with Star, Life, and Eagle. If he finds a weakness, he will try to get the SPL to assign the boy to teach the skill the next time it comes up. But he wouldn't "fail" someone for this at the higher ranks. And, as I have come to learn, a boy can't "Fail" his SM conference. He either has one or he doesn't. In our case, and I suspect many others, Scout Spirit is discussed and signed off at the SM conference. Maybe the SM can "fail" a boy on Scout Spirit, bit not on the confernece itself.

 

Paperwork problems? Come on! If there are paperwork problems at this point, either your son didn't do his paperwork carefully enough, or someone who handles advancements in your Troop didn't do their job well enough. I suspect it was the latter. I am the Advancment Chiar for my Troop, and I know I make errors. But I can assure you that if there was a mismatch between the official MB dates and the dates on a boy's application, and if the boy came to me to verify his dates before he presented the application to anyone, it would get corrected. Sounds to me like someone tried to sabotage his efforts. I don't want to believe that's true, but that's what it seems to me.

 

Two hours and not quite finished yet? Some of the SM conferences that take place in our Troop take that and longer, but that's because they often get the important (official) stuff out of the way, then spend a long time talking about memories, stories, the future, and just plain conversation. By the time a boy gets to this point in our Troop, the SM has become a real friend.

 

And lastly, at least in our Council, dates only have to match month and year, and be the appropriate date to match rank advancement. Maybe it's not like that in your Council, but if someone is being picky enough to try to fix 5/15/00 and make it 5/17/00, that's ridiculuous.

 

I think you son has put up with enough. Have him contact the District Advancement Chair.

 

Mark

[Bob White]

Hi jyaklovich,

for some reason your Private messaging did not work so I will post this publicly.

 

In response to your questions.

"During the Eagle Scout Master Conference, can a boy fail if he does not know 100% his Tenderfoot, Secound Class, and First Class skills ?"

Whether this was a SMC or a Board of Review, this would not be criteria for failure. In fact if it were a BOR you cannot retest at all, and really at an SMC it is not an appropriate line of questioniong since it does not concern the goals of the SMC.

 

"Can the Scout Master continue to ask for follow up conference(s) until he ace's these skills ?"

No, for the same reasons as listed above. Once a skill is signed off the testing is done. There is no retesting option in the advancement method.

 

"Is this in compliance with National Boy Scout Policy for a Scout Master Conference."

 

I think "policy for a SMC" is not an accurate term. It is not in keeping with the goals and purpose of a SMC. You can find these in the Boy Scout Handbook and in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.

 

Some additional points I would like to leave you with. Most Scoutmaster Conferences take 20 minutes or less. Even an Eagle Board of review should only take about 30 minutes to an hour at the most.

Making sure the council has accurate records is the responsibility of adults. It was an adult who signed his MB card and an adult who sent the advancement report to the council. The scout should not have his SMC held up over paperwork. Also, the council only checks the advancement report for dates and to make sure the correct badges have been earned.

 

As others have said the SMC is not a team sport. It should be the scout and the SM.

 

I would direct the Troop Committee chair and the troop advancment chair to the appropriate sections of the Boy Scout Handbook and the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, so that they might see the errors they have done and correct them as quickly as possible.

 

Good Luck,

Bob White

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

"During the Eagle Scout Master Conference, can a boy fail if he does not know 100% his Tenderfoot, Secound Class, and First Class skills ? Can the Scout Master continue to ask for follow up conference(s) until he ace's these skills ? "

 

I don't know about the SMC but around here the norm seems to be to grill candidates at their Eagle BOR on everything from "Who was Baden-Powell?" to "I've sprained my ankle, bandage it please." One wrong answer won't fail you but a series of answers that show you don't know the history of Scouting, first aid, scoutcraft, or any other subject may well send the Scout away disappointed.

 

As for "failing" a Scoutmaster Conference, I've known Scouts to be sent away with their book unsigned for lower ranks because they exhibited a bad attitude or hadn't met the requirements for "active in the troop."

 

All this may or may not be by the but is a Scout who can't tie a square knot really Eagle material?

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

If the Eagle Candidate cant tie a square knot, I can see that as a problem, a problem that relects poorly on the whole troop. How could a scout get this far in the program and knot know how to tie a square not? After being a troop leader for at least 16 months, you would think he would have had to teach the knots a few times.

 

Running the boy through scout skills during a scoutmaster conference is wrong.

 

In the BSA Publication "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, 33088D printed in 2002, on page 25 its says this under the heading of Scoutmaster Conferences

 

"One of the most enjoyable experiences of being a Scoutmaster is the opportunity for a Scout and his leader to sit down and visit together.

 

In large troops, Scoutmasters occasionally assign this responsibility to assistant scoutmasters or members of the troop commitee; but this is unfortunate because most Scoutmasters feel that this is truly the opportunity to get to know the scout and help him chart his course in life.

 

A good conference should be unhurried. It helps the scout evaluate his accomplishments and set new goals with his scoutmaster. The can be accomplsihed at a troop meeting, camping trip, or in the scout's home.

 

Goal setting by the scout makes it possible for the scoutmaster to help the scout with his weaknesses and encourage him to use his strengths.

 

The Scout (joining) conference is probably one of the most important associations the scout will have in his scouting career. It is at this conference that the scoutmaster illustrates to him the adult to youth relationship that is unique to scouting.

 

All through the ranks, it is rewarding for the scoutmaster to observe the scout grow in responsibility and maturity. It is through this associaiton and example that a young man grows and matures and the scoutmaster conference accomplishes that aim (See scoutmaster Handbook Capter 10)"

 

It dont say nothin' about no 4 on 1 gang up on the boy for 2 or more hours, it dont mention tieing knots or taking a compass reading, it not a final exam. If a troop has to be sure that its members are ready for Eagle by a full requirements review, then they need to review the troops program because that is one seriously flawed instrument.

 

[jyoklavich]

I have received call from all parties to assure me that the paperwork problem has been resolved. Less than 48 hours after the SMC. I can tell many people with concerns of this process made every effort to fix it. Specially, Joseph Eagle Shepard which call me this morning to assure me that my son will pass on Monday, and that Joseph is a fine scout. We will see on Monday.

 

In the mean time, I must reflect and say I think the biggest problem could be me. There are several in our SM Corp, that I do not think likes me. Hell, I am totally frustrated by the length of time this process has taken. I have accussed people of not giving a damn to within my troop. That has a terrible backlash, but I do think most troop have people that are in the control, and you can not say anything bad about them else receive the rath of hell back at you. That will reflect on how they treat your son too.

 

So, I am going to stay back, but I think the damage is done with my political ties to this troop. As soon as the process is over and he does get his SM complete, and BOR.... I not going to let the door hit me in the butt on the way out. Thats it, its over with me and scouts. I might attend a few campouts, but this experience I do not wish on anyone.

 

If you are in a troop, and you are part of the inside group that is in control, remember others have the right to give opinions...

 

EVERYONE, THanks for your Support, it has been a wealth of healing through the Eagle process.

Joe

[Fat Old Guy]

"If you are in a troop, and you are part of the inside group that is in control, remember others have the right to give opinions... "

 

Group dynamics are a fascinating subject. Often those with the loudest opinions are often those who are most willing to do the least. Backseat drivers, for lack of a better term. Comments and advice can be helpful such as when someone says, "If we leave at 5 instead of 7, we'll get to the campground before dark." Non-helpful comment are things like, "you know, you ought to find better places to camp" with no suggestions of what might be better.

 

You're right, there are too often those in a group that no one wants to cross. Not just Scouts, any group. In Scouting, they usually are there only for their child and if they help another child along the way, that is just incidental.

 

If you like the Scouting program but just have issues with your troop, don't just walk away. Find another position. District Committees are usually looking for help and, if nothing else, it will irritate those in your troop that don't like you because you'll be percieved to be higher up the food chain than they are. :-)

 

[rlculver415]

It is easy to understand why you are so frustrated with how your son's troop functions. Certainly there are areas where they should endeavor to follow BSA policies better (and set aside personalities). However, I strongly advise you (and your son, also?) not to give up on scouting because of that. There are other troops, other avenues of service that may be a better fit for you. Also, as I have repeatedly said to our scouts, Eagle is not the end of the scouting experience, but really a springboard to other fascinating scouting venues. Don't quit now!

[Zahnada]

"Eagle is not the end of the scouting experience, but really a springboard to other fascinating scouting venues. Don't quit now!"

 

Great quote, rlculver415!

 

And how true! Eagle is just something on paper you can take with you. It's a physical representation of all that scouting offers that can be recognized by the rest of society. However, these scoutmasters seem to be taking it a bit too seriously. A scoutmaster should never act as "The Keeper of the Eagle Award" where a scout must overcome obstacles to obtain it. Eagle should just be something that's achieved on the route to a greater learning experience brought on by scouting. Therefore, the scoutmaster is one of many guides on this trail.

 

jyoklavich, I too hope that you and your son stay in scouting. It has so much more to offer than this one award.

[NWScouter]

There has been some good advice given. Retesting has and is the greatest violation in BOR process. It adds to requirements as published no more, no less. It needs to be handled by training. Also there are some great BOR sample questions on this Scouters.Com site and others. Find them and edit them to your situation.

I had a great advancement chair in my troop when I was scoutmaster, if he couldnt a person to stop asking inappropriate questions, by golly he didnt get asked to serve again.

The same when I served as District Advancement Chair, my Eagle Board Chair would not ask them back.

My DE was always on the look out for special people in the community to sit on our Eagle Boards. We had assistant police chief, superior court judges, city council members, and heads of the youth program for state VFW and Shrine. He wanted them to see the cream of crop of youth and also to give those young men going for Eagle a idea how special they are.

 

Early in this thread, one poster said that they had their scouts do the board of reviews for some ranks. When my son joined in 1986 he was reviewed by the PLC up to First Class, Star and Life were done by members of the troop committee. In 1989, the revamping of the requirements made all BORs except for Eagle are to be done by members of the troop committee. This is not to be changed by any local body (PLC, TC).

(This message has been edited by NWScouter)

[keschmahalen]

Hello,

 

About twenty odd years ago,I finally came back full time to Scouting nearly two decades after I made Eagle. About the same time I married, started a family, and also became involved with the local track and field.

 

I've always said this was because I owed what I am to three men. In the same order as the three affiliations I mentioned above: my former SM, my father, and my high school cross country coach.

 

I tell you this so that you will know all there is to know about me, but all I know about you and your son is what I've read in this thread. Do not take any of what I am about to say personally. Just read it, reflect, and do what you think is right.

 

Your son, not you, nor his SM, nor his troop will receive his Eagle. When he does, it will only be a "piece of paper", but it will stay with him for the rest of his life.

 

After he receives it, don't teach him that he got what he was after, so now lets walk away.

 

In an earlier post you mentioned making changes in the troop (not your words, my interpretation). That may be too rough a road, but if you choose it, good luck. Others, since your last post or two, have given you some other sound advice. Please reread them, reflect, and do what you think is best.

 

Whatever you decide, remember, Scouts did not do this to you or your son. Certain individuals may have, but I am not going to go there. Before you do decide what you are going to do, have your own SMC with your son. Don't make it twenty minutes, make it a whole weekend, alone, doing what the two of you like to do together. And don't forget to ask him what scouts has done for him.

 

YIS, paul

[jyoklavich]

God, you guys are great. What a support team.

 

I am peave over the "Old Fat Guy" comments. Lets make something very clear. The first year(98) my son was in scouts, I was the Asst. Scoutmaster for a troop that was only 34 that grew to 67 in one month, with my son one of the 23 new scouts. The Scoutmaster at another troop, put me in charge of the 23 new scouts, by the next years summer camp (15months later) 20 of the 23 were First Class. I worked with 5 other adults, today out of the 23, 8 are Eagles in 6 years later. 2 years ago, we moved to a closer troop, but I took a District role.

 

In addition, I was District Camporee Chairman for 2 years organizing over 800 people to a great event. Do not assume I am a loud mouth that does nothing, I am a loud mouth that is deadicated in scouting. I love it.

 

As for the others, and everyone that has commented in this process. My wife, son and daughter and I are leaving Friday for a "High Adventure". The wife said, I had spent too much traveling to great places and this was the year she wanted to do something. We will be at the bottom of the Grand Caynon this coming Saturday, heading down the rapids for 4 days, then VEGAS. I was hoping before this event, my son would have gotten his SCM. But, as the last person said, and I agree, its time for DAD and Son to reflect. What a great idea and a great time to do it...

 

Bless you all,

Joe

[Fat Old Guy]

Hey Joe,

 

Say what you want about my comments but get my name right.

 

Did I say that you were a loud mouth who does nothing? I only said that quite often the loudest complainer do the least. If I had thought that you did nothing, I wouldn't have suggested that you stay involved at the District level.