Eagle Scout ScoutMaster Conf - "Face The Nation"

[mk9750]

jyoklavich,

 

If you or your son are concerned about how he will fair at the SM Conference, you might want to put the following in your back pocket if you need it.

 

I believe the requirement is to participate in a Scoutmaster Conference, not to pass a SM Conference. Therefore, even if the SM says your son is the least deserving Scout he has ever seen come before him, he has met the requirement. In our Troop, and from what I gather from this forum, it happens in many Troops, the SM Conference is where a Scout is signed off for Scout Spirit. But a Scout can have Scout Spirit and not know any of the rank requirements. So if your son can get the SM to sign off on Scout Spirit during the SM Conference, he should have no problem getting or sitting in front of a B of R.

 

I think SMs try to make things look like they have the power to deny a rank at the SM Conference, and I kind of like the fact that boys buy into this. But if push came to shove, I don't think it really is true. I just think that the Scout has to have a conference, not "pass" it.

 

Mark

[shemgren]

The guidelines for the Scoutmaster Conference are found in Chapter 10 ot the The Scoutmaster Handbook, no. 33009. The Scoutmaster Conference is discussed, starting on page 120 and includes sample questions for each rank.

 

A rule oriented guideline is in the Adavancement Committee Policies and Procedures, no.33088D, starting on page 25.

 

The bottom line is the review process is NOT A RETEST! A Scout is Trustworthy! He has his advancement signed off by other Scouts, Scout Leaders and Merit Badge Counselors, and all these people have tested the Scout and found him passing, or they should have not signed off on the requirement!

 

The purpose of the review process is to ensure that he has completed all the requirements, to determine the quality of the troop experience, and to encourage the Scout to the next rank. This doesn't include retesting the Scout on all the skills he has learned! Things it does include are examining his handbook for proper signatures, that the troop records are up-to-date, etc.

 

The Scoutmaster's Conference is designed to:

* Establish trust and understanding between a Scout and the Scoutmaster.

* Reinforce the ideals of Scouting.

* Allow the Scout and Scoutmaster to share ideas and ask questions of one another.

* Set goals and outline steps for achieving them.(This message has been edited by shemgren)

[SM406]

All great responses. I just experienced something similar with my middle son and his Scoutmaster for his Eagle scoutmaster conference. This scoutmaster wanted my son to tie various knots as a test. (The testing issue) However in the Boy Scout Handbook on the page listing the requirements for Eagle rank it says nothing about being able to tie knots. He was adding to the requirements, which according to the handbook of requirements for ranks and merit badges says you are not allowed to add to and delete from the requirements. I do not think anybody would debate that it would ideal for the boys to know everything they learned since joining Scouts, the fact remains, the only thing required for Eagle are those listed on the appropriate page in the Boy Scout handbook. The SM conference should be a time for reflection on the boy's journey in Scouting and where he is going in the future. Not a test. When the Eagle candidate has made it to this point it is a little late to worry about Tenderfoot and Second class requirements. If there are issues with a Boy at this point, then the leaders need to review the troop program and how boys are advancing and make the necessary adjustments to the program so that similar instances do not occur in the future.

[jyoklavich]

I think all of you have helped me out here. I weigh the political benifits, and approach the committee chairman and district rep at the right time.

 

At the same time, I am sure he will pass regardless, I just dont want to risk his eagle with this jerks. So I will make the right call at the right time...

 

Regardless, I will rip this troop a new one once I can ultimately confirm my son's eagle rank and confirmation... then, I will do what is right. I firmly believe NO scout should have to go through this process and feel he has to prove himself again.

 

Yours in Scouting and In DEBT to all of you.

Joseph SR.

[evmori]

SM406,

While knots are not required for the Eagles rank, an Eagle candidate should know the knots required for the ranks below Eagle. One can view the asking of a Scout to tie knots during a SMC as a review.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SM406]

How would you respond if the Scout had difficulty with the knots or any of the lower rank requirements? Would you deny him? Are not the Eagle SMC and the Eagle rank about leadership and the boys demonstration of those skills? If a scout is not in an environment where he is asked to use the skills taught in the Tenderfoot through First Class ranks, is it fair to expect him to know those skills? I still believe that the Eagle SMC is not the time or place to weed out Scouts because of their skill level, which should be done at the appropriate SMC for that rank. Again check the Scout Handbook for the requirements for Eagle, nothing said about knots or compass or any other lower rank requirement is found there. Any review of such and then not signing off on the SMC until it is met, is in fact adding to the requirements, - which is not allowed.

[OldGreyEagle]

"One can view the asking of a Scout to tie knots during a SMC as a review."

 

Perhaps one can, and one also could regard this as a blatant, outright mis-use of the Eagle scoutmaster conference. If someone can rationalize knot tieing as a stumbling block to Eagle in the Scoutmaster conference, that someone has no place as an adult leader much less as a scoutmaster. Strong words yes, but I am tired of having the BSA program being twisted to serve as ego support for a myriad of demagogues who have taken to torturing boys so they can prove in at least one place in their sad pathetic lives they have some vestige of power

[Bob White]

SM406,

You are to be commended for your understanding of, and committment to, the real methods and purpose of the Scoutmaster Conference and the Board of Rview. It is the personal growth of the scout that counts. The skills of camping are but one tool we use to reach those goals. A scout who makes ethical decisions based on the values of the Oath and Law is a true scout, even if he cannot tie a clove hitch.

 

OGE...

Sing it Brother!

 

 

Bob White

 

PS. I readily accept that most times when leaders do the wrong thing it is from the lack of knowledge. Where I get ruffled to the max is when the leader refuses to learn, or worse yet knows the scouting method but refuses to follow it. (As we witness here on a regular basis).

 

 

[dsteele]

I'm going to throw in my two cents here (not in disagreement with anyone in particular, so don't get jumpy )

 

I think that there is a process in place that is designed to make sure That the "powers that be" are all in agreement that what we have before us is, in thought and deed (I didn't say knots!) is a true Eagle Scout.

 

The Scoutmaster conducts a Scoutmaster conference. In my opinion (I'm not quoting chapter and verse, so feel free to disagree) the Scoutmaster is one of the people most knowledgeable about the candidate's worthiness and readiness for the rank. The Scoutmaster also has to consider the reputation of the troop to the community in general and ask himself/herself . . . can I be proud to be part of the awarding of this young man his Eagle?

 

When I was a Scoutmaster, I tried to keep the Scoutmaster Conference invisible to the Scout. We'd simply find ourselves slightly away from everyone else and discuss philosophical issues. I knew whether the kid knew his knots or not. I knew what I thought of his character. In fact, I didn't do those little chats until I thought he was ready. Yes, I realize I'm crossing philosophies with a lot of you. I'm not saying yours are invalid. They just happen to be mine. At the conclusion of these little chats I would inform the Scout that he'd just had a Scoutmaster conference and that I thought he was ready for his next rank.

 

Of course, after a time or two the kid figures out what you're doing but also realizes that it's not a grilling. It's a chat.

 

I'm not going to get into whether boards of review should test the Scout's knowledge. That is mostly left up to the unit to determine. Or council/district board of review as the case may be.

 

I will make two statements of personal philosophy -- these are not necessarily the opinions of the Boy Scouts of America, just little ole' Dsteele squawking . . .

 

To me the most important part of being an Eagle Scout is character. I admonish all Eagle Scouts to never let anyone be surprised when they find out that they are an Eagle Scout. They carry with them the reputation of all Eagle Scouts all day, every day and for the rest of their lives. Mine included.

 

Then I tell them the story of the recently divorced young lady I went to pick up from her father's home for a date. There was a delay as she finished getting ready for the date and I had an uncomfortable silence with her father. He looked at me and said, "Why should I let you date my daughter?"

 

I didn't flinch. I said, "Because I'm an Eagle Scout."

 

"So was her ex-husband," he growled. Ouch!

 

It's a true story. But I think most Eagle Courts of Honor take it a little too far and I've never been criticized (at least to my face) for lightening things up a little.

 

My second point refers to a couple of threads I've seen where people wonder if someone truly deserved the Eagle Scout rank due to age, etc.

 

The point is this . . . we all carry the reputation of the BSA and that of the Eagle rank with us. In order for a candidate to receive the badge, he needs the approval of his Scoutmaster, members of the board of review, the district advancement chairman, the committee chairman, the scout executive and the national office. If one of those people does not believe that the Scout deserves the rank, they should not sign off on it. There is an appeals process in place for Scouts who feel they were wronged. Those are rare circumstances and should not be taken lightly.

 

Should an Eagle Candidate have to go on "Face the Nation?" Not, in my opinion, if the troop leadership has done it's job correctly. If they have, it will be readily apparent to those who know them (if the BOR is done at the troop level) and quickly apparent to those who do not know them well (if at the district/council level) that we have, collectively, created an Eagle Scout who will do us proud for a long time to come.

 

Holy crow -- how did this soap box get so high. Jeronimooooo . . . .

 

I'm outta here.

 

DS

[Bob White]

As usual dsteele I agree with just about everything you wrote. I will ask you to reconsider one thing though because I think as a professional your take on this is vital.

 

You wrote I'm not going to get into whether boards of review should test the Scout's knowledge. That is mostly left up to the unit to determine. Or council/district board of review as the case may be."

 

This is not at all in keeping with the BSA advancement policies that are very specific about not retesting skills at the Board of Review or during the Scoutmasters Council. Far too many adults have used re-testing as a tool to humiliate scouts or too stall advancement of boys they considered "too young" or "advanceing too quickly". As you said, it's the character that counts and that is what these two personal growth opportunities are there to examine.

 

thanks,

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[dsteele]

Bob:

 

I must confess that I'm at home ill and don't have my advancement guidelines in front of me. But I am glad you asked for clarification. I did not, by any means, intend to contradict BSA advancement policies.

 

I believe the phrase "A Scout is tested" is used in the advancement guidelines. Like I said, I don't have it in front of me. What I meant when I said I wasn't going to get involved in the debate was that I wasn't about to argue what "tested" means.

 

To some it means he ought to know all the knots, have the fire-building skills, and so forth. I think what you and I believe is that we're testing whether or not the Scout is a good example of a Scout.

 

I should be able to go back to the office tomorrow and will happily look up what the Advancement Guidelines say about boards of review. I believe, but honestly don't remember offhand, that there are some guidelines in there that would back up what you and I both are saying.

 

If you'd like to look them up and post them, it won't bother me a bit. I just don't have them at home and am very interested in taking a nap on the couch in a moment.

 

At any rate, I have never allowed nor brought, a piece of rope to a board of review. I'm sure someone will point out that I was a Scoutmaster and not part of the board of review. I was there, however. I was there to provide comfort to the Scouts and to keep the adults in line. I always tried to keep the parents' collective minds on what is important. The values we find in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Everything else is but a means to an end.

 

DS

[ren-ren]

I have to admit that I do ask scouts to tie a knot during an Eagle Scout Master Conference. But I do it for two distinct reasons, one, normally the scout is nervous so I ask them something really easy, that I know they know, (tie a bowline) to place them at ease. Two, I use it as a lead in to the following question, Who taught you that? This is to initiate a discussion about the fact that they have benefited from the experience, time, efforts, and knowledge of others. Talk about their personnel plans for there future in Scouting. To discuss my personnel feelings about how I have seen them grow and benefit from the program. Finally to strongly encourage them to keep active in the Troop. You may not agree with this, but so far its worked very well for me. Actually I did this two weeks ago on a campout, and the conversation lasted for three hours. The scout and I talked about scouting and reminisced about our last 6- years working together. This now ranks as one of my most memorable and enjoyable times in 35 years of scouting.

[jbroganjr]

jkoklavich

Let me add some comfort to you concerning the SM and Eagle BoR. YOU CAN always appeal this decision. The process is listed in the publication concerning advancement, I do not have it here to cite the exact name and number, Bob White will hopefully bail me out and supply the information.

 

Have you talked to the District Advancement Chair about this situation?

If all goes completely wrong with the unit, it is up to the district Adv. Chair to process this. I believe he is the path with which you appeal, again I don't have the manual in front of me, so please refer to the official publication, which also contains how BoR are to be conducted. [For a fact, I know that SM and ASM are not involved with this at all!]

 

I also do not think this is "the sky is falling" but a friendly call to your D.E. and U.C. may be in order here. The U.C. (unit commissioner) one role is unit doctor and maybe having an outside level head in the picture may bring some focus back to this process.

 

Would it be out of line to conduct a "Trail to Scoutmaster" test with your unit ;-}

You could use all those myths in the other thread as a test of "earning" the SM patch.

Good Luck, don't forget, there is always an appeal. But work quick if your son is pushing the 18 year mark.

[jbroganjr]

Oooops, I see BW has already cited the correct manual.

[jbroganjr]

A couple of questions

Does this process happen with every eagle scout in your unit?

or is this a matter of "We'll make sure he earns it!"

And if this the way this unit thinks Eagle SM Conferences are, are they pulling this nonsense w/ Stars and Life?

Ultimately, though, this is wrong, and should not be tolerated. It is just so wrong, after a young man has gone through the hard work, planning and completion of an eagle project to have the end process tainted. Even, you, jyoklavich, made such a telling statement

"I am on a polictical tight rope, with my Son Eagle rank at risk, and knowing what is right and wrong"

An environment like your situation is not scouting.

I wish you luck, not only in your son achieving his eagle (Good guys win in scouting, keep the faith) but also in changing this wronghead attitude for the next boy up for eagle.