Who Bears the Risk of Loss ?

[T2Eagle]

Im curious how this works in your council. Who does, and who do you think should, bear the risk of loss if someone reneges on their popcorn sale?

 

Last year my council started requiring that parents agree to the following in order for their scout to participate in the sale:

 

To accept responsibility for all popcorn he receives and for popcorn money due. I also understand that, in the event that payment for his popcorn is in default, the amount due will be submitted to a collection agency and I will be held responsible for payment of all reasonable collection charges and/or attorney fees. I realize that popcorn is not returnable & cannot be returned for a refund or exchange. No money is collected until the popcorn is delivered

 

So, in return for doing the council the service of raising money for them I agree to bear all the risk of loss while they can rely on receiving all the gain (OK maybe the unit gets some of the gain, but still none of it is for me).

 

So if my son goes to the neighbor and he says sure order me six of those $50 tins to watch the big game and then two months later when its to be delivered he says sorry, my team stinks, Im not having a party so I dont want the stuff Im on the hook for $300 plus whatever collection and attorney costs the council wants to tack on to collect from me.

 

I read this once and said no way will I sign it, and I dont think anyone else should either.

 

[eagle77]

Just collect the money from the neighbor when he places the order, or before he finds out how terrible his team is.

[T2Eagle]

Eagle77,

 

This may seem strange to but the big game I'm referring to is a college football game. I grew up in Bucks but I live in the midwest now and you would not believe how much folks here care about their teams, and they will hold out hope right up until they have to spend money.

[Basementdweller]

well collect the money at time of sale.

 

No popcorn leaves the CO with out being paid for.

 

i would never sign that agreement, and would just ask the pack how much my sons part of the program cost is.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[packsaddle]

Stop selling the wretched stuff.

[Scoutfish]

Sounds like you might need to make a reverse of that agreement when you pay a fee to go campoiung at a council camp.

 

Something along the lines of if you are not 100 percent happy at camp or if any section of camp or any activity is dropped, canceld or done wrong - you get 100% of your fee back as well as any costs of gas, time and the necessary collection agency that collects your fee for you.

 

What? What's this about you can't find my son'sd advancement of where a leader has taken YPT? He took it 3 times already! Why can't your system accept it?

 

That leaders time and energy are not returnable, cannot be exchanged or refunded!

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, I know that won't work, but sometimes I can't control the smartass in me!

 

[Basementdweller]

Ya they lost my training again too,

 

They are still beating us over the head with FOS to last nights round table.

 

 

[Curious]

"Last year my council started requiring that parents agree to the following in order for their scout to participate in the sale:"

 

The risk of loss is with the council.

 

And I have serious doubts as to whether such an agreement would be enforceable. All the same, I would not sign that, or any other, agreement in order to participate.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

There are people who take popcorn, sell it and pocket the money. It can be tough to get that money back.

 

If you have a signed contract that makes people liable for collection costs, attorney fees and court costs, you've got a far greater ability to get your money.

 

If someone defaults on buying popcorn, you need to sell it to someone else. If someone places an unusually large order, perhaps you should get paid in advance to protect yourself.

 

Frankly, I don't see that contract as being unreasonable. It simply puts people on notice that they can be held responsible for doing what they are supposed to do.

 

Also, I'm guessing that councils aren't going to beat up people willie nilly. Let's suppose someone is taking a van full of $5000 of popcorn to deliver. They are carjacked and the van and popcorn are stolen with a police investigation conducted.

 

If there is no insurance on the vehicle, I doubt that the council is going to go after the volunteer who was carjacked.

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

>>To accept responsibility for all popcorn he receives and for popcorn money due. I also understand that, in the event that payment for his popcorn is in default, the amount due will be submitted to a collection agency and I will be held responsible for payment of all reasonable collection charges and/or attorney fees. I realize that popcorn is not returnable & cannot be returned for a refund or exchange."

[T2Eagle]

The thing is I'm not allowed to collect the money up front, that's also part of the agreement I sign.

 

And I'm not ordering popcorn to resell it. This isn't a small business my son is going into where he takes some risk and then earns some profit. My son is asking community members to order popcorn from the Boy Scouts, the profits from that transaction then go to the Boy Scouts, not me or my son.

 

And it's not about me pocketing the money after delivering the popcorn, that would be an easy agreement to sign. This is about even if my son does nothing wrong, he's completely innocent, he does exactly what he's supposed to do, but a third party unrelated to us does something wrong, then somehow I take the financial loss for that.

 

All in return for me doing them a favor.

 

So do any of your councils use this type of agreement?

[KC9DDI]

The thing is I'm not allowed to collect the money up front, that's also part of the agreement I sign.

 

That strikes me as much more concerning than the "risk of loss" part of the agreement - who exactly is preventing you from collecting the money up front, and what is the rationale for doing so?

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello KC9,

 

Why might a council oppose collecting money in advance?

 

Interesting question --- I can only speculate.

 

No receipts are typically issued when sales are made. Collecting money, cash especially, without handing out receipts would be a poor cash management practice.

 

Collecting cash and issueing receipts has its own risks. There are going to be people who accept cash, provide receipts and pocket the cash. Usually there are only a few days between pickling up popcorn and when payment is due, perhaps reducing this window of risk and exposure.

 

If people can go for weeks issuing receipts and holding on to cash, very likely the risk of loss increases.

 

I'm only guessing here, of course.

 

The utility where I used to work had an effective means to control payments received in the field. Employees filled out a three part receipt, with one copy going to customers, a second copy turned in with the payment to cashiers and a third copy remaining in the employees receipt book. That protected everyone pretty well.

 

Still, two people were fired for pocketing cash payments, even when it was a cinch that people would complain and the payment would be documented. Not a few people can be led into temptation....

[CCbytrickery]

I've taken on the role of PK this year (/sigh).

I have instituted the following policies:

 

1. Any popcorn orders above $50 must be paid for at the time of order. I am highly suggesting all popcorn orders be paid for at the time of order.

 

2. I will provide a receipt book. I am urging all to use these; the pack will cover this expense.

 

3. I will accept any payments--partial or full. The scouts will receive a receipt from me, and I will have both a copy of that receipt plus a notation in my little spreadsheet. (I will then hand that payment to the treasurer, who will record it in her little spreadsheet, that she and I will compare at the end of sales.) I will accept checks, cash or money orders. If a check bounces, the check writer will be given a bill for the amount of the check plus any and all fees associated with the bounced check, and must pay that bill in cash or money order.

 

4. All popcorn must be paid for by xx date. We have to cut a check (1) to the council by xxx date or we lose percentages of profit. I am not losing 2% profit because Johnny's parents are unable to get their act together. We have enough in the bank to cover the amount due for the popcorn, but if we dip into that, then we won't have those funds to pay for pinewood derby or campouts or the cool activity we have planned for that next pack meeting.

 

5. Parents assume the responsibility of this popcorn sale. If they order the popcorn from us, they are responsible for the value of this popcorn. We are not accepting popcorn back; if you get it from us, you are to return the cash value to us. Unsure about Aunt Mary's order? Make her pay for it up front.

 

All these rules have come about because of the issues that have occured in the past.

 

Also, I have Show n sell rules:

1. We will have a base of xx. This is pack money and will be returned to the pack at the end of the sells.

 

2. Either the treasurer, the CM or myself (CC/PK) will be by the SNS a minimum of every 90 minutes to collect extra funds. Sooner, if the parents call and say "hey, we have a buttload of cash here!!"

 

3. SNS slots are 90 minutes. One parent during that 90 minute timeframe will be responsible for the cash box. They will count the amount in the box when they assume responsibility, count the amount at cash pick up and count the base cash and the amount that is being picked up, and then count the amount when they turn the cash over to the next parent.

 

4. There will be a receipt book, which will be kept by the CM/CC/T. When there is a pickup, the cash will be sealed in an envelope, with the 2nd part of the receipt, and the outside of the envelope will be signed and dated by both the parent and the person picking up. These envelopes will be gathered and be married by the T and either the CC or CM (whoever is available) and the receipts will be checked. then the money will be deposited.

 

I cannot track how much we are given by people, but I can track home much we are taking to the bank, kwim? I will also be tracking the product, again with receipts; with the parents counting product at the beginning/end of their shifts. The more paper trails I lay, the easier it is for me to find a problem.