Troop Finances

[hsscouts]

boomerscout:

 

That is an awesome list of gear thanks so much I copied that into word and printed off a few copies for leaders to look over as well. You know there are small lists in the boy scout handbooks I think on what kind of stuff scouts need but nothing as thourough as that, or broken up into troop provided scout provided.

 

The items for scouts to purchase was in reference to us depositing money into escrow to pay in the shop with no tax for non troop items. Someone said it was illegal or they thought it moght be I was replying saying these were not frivilous pruchases these were things like MB books and gear for individual scouts not bought at the same time or on the same receipt as advancements. An example would be little Johnny Jones comes to me with 10.00 and says he needs to buy 2 MB books for the upcoming SAW weekend event, we don't have what he needs in our library and no one else has them, I am going to the shop anyway so I take the money along with say 2 other scouts who would give me money for something scout related like uniform upgrades or a backpack, etc. I would then deposit it all as one lump sum into the escrow account and purchase each thing individually for each scout with no tax. This is not just for the no tax it is to keep a record of the purchases for us, our council would label the deposit "60.00 for John Jones, Blake Bones, and Jeff Jones for scout gear purchased in scout shop" this is recorded in thier computer, so when we pull our monthly statement from them we can see what was bought and for whom. Normal troop checks for advancements are labeled in the computer as "troop XXX check #XXX for advancements".

 

Nolesrule:

 

I understand what your saying about the advancements being broken down individually you know until you said that I actually had not thought of it like that. Your right in the pack we pay 10.00 a month in dues to the pack itself and then we pay 5.00 a month in den dues. The 10 is for advancement and general operating fees. We used to have a top out though that parents who submitted more than 5.00 worth of advancemets a month had to pay the extra. This was done to keep the advancement chair (me) from paying for extra stuff out of her own pocket and not getting the money back. Honestly we had parents submitting 10 belt loops for tigers in thier first month of scouts, I told my district commish because I was a unit commish for another pack and was wondering if there was something we could do as I thought there was no way these kids (who by the way sat in the corner and did not participate during meetings weekly) were actually earning these. He said we were not allowed to question it, I made an announcement to the pack at a meeting that they had 5 years to do these things and would need to do them again in Webelos so don't feel the need to rush through the program, that there were ways to entertain and keep the kids interested in scouts and make it last. If they let thier shild do everything in the first year they would be bored by the time they got to Bear level. It didn't stop so that's when we put the top out on it this stopped them from doing it.

 

Honestly the boy scouts have so few advancements, maybe 1 MB a month but that's rare 4 ranks in the first year and 4-10 MB's over the summer so I think I can come up with a monthly fee to cover all of that.

 

Thanks for making me see that differently

 

See somtimes it is good to have an outside view of what your doing to point out or ask why

[nolesrule]

First off, yeah we did get a bit off topic there. I think you distracted us with some of the other things going on. Still, I think the issue of threatening a scout to call the police because he couldn't sleep needs to be addressed.

 

I think I said it earlier. After summer camp is always going to be the most expensive trip to the scout shop for advancement purchases. The trick is to either charge your annual dues just after summer camp (many units have a program year that starts when school restarts) or make sure you have enough in your general fund to cover the expense so you can amortize the large advancement purchase through monthly dues over the course of the program year.

 

 

That list above was pretty comprehensive. In addition to adding tents so you have enough for every boy in the unit (and a good tent treated well will last long after your crop of first year scouts has aged out), as the troop gets bigger (like when you hit 11 scouts) and you have multiple patrols, in order to truly implement the patrol method you will need a full set of cooking gear for each patrol (and if you do an adult patrol, rather than having the patrols host the adults for meals, the adults will need their own set of cooking gear as well).

 

But the cooking gear, like tents, is a capital expenditure that will stay with the troop long after the boys are gone when properly treated. So you can't expect to just bill the new incoming scouts for that gear. It's an overall troop expense that should be paid out of the troop general fund. Eventually, that stuff will need to be replaced due to wear and tear. It's best to set a fundraising (I keep coming back that word) goal for making those purchases and making sure you have the money before you need to spend it.

 

But you're also going to have the consumables that aren't included in the camping food budget, such as aluminum foil, plastic wrap, plastic bags, trash bags, dishwashing soap, sponges, scrub pads, paper towels, fuel, etc., which won't need to be replaced monthly, but will be in need of replacement on a regular basis.

 

And it's also probably a good idea to maintain a minimum balance in the general fund at all times in case of unexpected or emergency expenses.

 

I wish I still had a copy of the actual financial numbers that a troop I visited had at their year end committee meeting in July that I could show you. Yeah, it included going to summer camp out of state (the major expense for the year), but their total actuals were in the $14000 range. But was more interesting was the way they broke down their expenses into categories and had monthly numbers for both income and expenses. If I had a copy I'd send it to you so you could see the cash flow over the course of a program year.

 

Interestingly, in the 23 years of that troop, this year is the first time they are charging families a program fee because the fundraisers came up a bit short. Activity-wise, they are a pay-as-you go troop, but everything else comes out of the general fund. And it turns out their shortfall was solely due to the unexpectedly low gas mileage they got towing their troop trailer from Seminole, FL to Georgia and back for summer camp.

 

Starting up (and to an extent expansion) is always going to be the most expensive time as you acquire the necessary gear. But that's why it's important to organize successful fundraisers. Teaching the boys to earn the money for the troop and for their own scout accounts through fundraisers will teach them more fiscal responsibility than billing families as expenses (expected or otherwise) come up. Families have enough to worry about. Think long-term. Make the troop financially sustainable on its own without cash infusions beyond dues and zero net activity fees.

 

It's like what I said about not being a co-op. The families don't own a share in the troop. They don't own a share of the equipment that they can cash in on when they leave. Make the boys pay for it through working fundraisers...and keep the percentage going into scout accounts on the lower side.

[boomerscout]

I had to double-check with our treasureer, but yes, using a tax exempt account for personal use items is quite frowned upon.

If Johnny wanted to lend the troop $10 for mb manuals, that would be OK as long as they go into the troop library after he's done with them. (I know, another loan to make good on) Buying a pack or other personal equipment would be OK if they're going to be used as awards, but not if an individual just wants to get out of paying sales tax.

We can use our troop funds to buy tee-shirts (a previous example you mentioned), but only if everyone participating in a troop activity is going to get one.

I agree your CC has to go. Threatening to call the police shows she should not be around children. It's probably too late now, but someone should have gone to Council with it

How is your troop progressing to becoming patrol or boy-led?

 

 

[hsscouts]

We are doing really well at being boy led, our male leaders are very on top of things when it comes to teaching the boys how to run the troop. We currently have 2 patrols with 3 in one patrol and 4 in another, plus a senior patrol leader as well. We had 4 and 4 but one of our scouts is a paranoid schizophrenic (not sure if that's spelled right) he dropped out for awhile without telling anyone and wouldn't talk to anyone when we called. Finally he told his mother he just "knew" the other kids were making fun of him and talking about him and everyone hated him. It's not true it's a side effect of his disorder the paranoia side makes this stuff come out. So he is taking a break for a little while until he feels compfortable enough to come back, but has been told it was not true and that everyone misses him.

 

Anyway back to our patrols, each patrol has a patrol leader and a quartermaster as elected positions we just went through or second election of the year. The SPL is elected as well. We also have an appointed Webmaster and Historian for the Troop itself. We have been talking about apointing a scribe to keep track of money and expenses and meet with the patrol leaders about how much things are costing and what can they do to cut back etc. and what are thier long term goals as a troop.

 

Our major issue is not enough boys and we do not want anyone getting overwhelmed with 2 jobs. My son is currently the only kid with 2 positions he is the troop historian and a patrol leader. However he does not do his historian stuff at meetings of course it's something done in his down time. He basically is creating a scrapbook or year book for every year he is there, he really likes doing that kind of stuff and was doing it on his own anyway so the SM asked him if would be something he would like to do for the Troop. He makes up the pages and then sets them in a glue based hard bound book outside, I screen print so he has taken our troop logo and screened it on the front of the book, then takes a silver paint marker and write the year on the spine. We will be putting these in a troop bookcase so new scouts can come and look at the exciting things our boy have done. Plus being founding members of this troop is very important to these boys. They think of themselves as leaders already in that they feel they need to set the example for new scouts coming in. The boys all have a great attitude.

 

Right now we have 7 Tenderfoot scouts and 1 Second Class scout, after tonight which is our monthly board of review, I expect to have at most 3 new Second Class scouts at the least one new 2nd class, My son will be the highest ranked soon as he will be ready for 1st class in a few weeks as well he only has 3 things to do for it and they are super easy things. He had the drive for it though he is an overachiever for sure when it comes to scouting, he gave up doing more MB classes at camp so he could take the class called Wings at TK summer camp, it's where they have different levels and they worked on things with each class, so he got about 30% of his stuff for both ranks done then, then he got the rest for 2nd done at his second week and about 50% more for 1st, he has had trouble swimming so he took learn to swim at the second week thinking it would help learn to swimm faster and for a longer time so he could pass the test, funny thing was he was too good for the class it was for non-swimmers kids afraid to even get into the water. So the scout giving the class took my son aside and asked him if he would help teach the class all week since he really knew so much about swimming and that afterward he would work with him on techniques and tricks to pass the test. He did very well at it.

 

My son ran for SPL this election but ended up dropping out at the last minute knowing he was going to win because he knew the other boy running wanted it really bad and had not been a leader yet, and mine had been the acting SPL at camp already. So he ran for Patrol leader instead and got that. He is very thoughtful.

 

But back to the boy led troop, yes they decide on thier campouts, thier food, where to go etc. they decide on what fundraisers to do and waht not to do, they are begining to run the meetings in more of a patrol setting instead of just a big troop doing things together. It's coming along nicely.

 

Troops in our area do not run this way most of them run a leader run program, we checked out a lot, well actually all the troops in our area, and every single one told us (and we saw for ourselves since we attened troop meetings) that thier boys are given 2-3 merit badges to work on as a troop each month, we saw how they taught the boys new ranks, we actually witnessed in most of the troops them teaching skills in this way: they would tie the know in front of the boy, then have the boy tie it, if he tied it correctly he got signed off, our current second class scout came from one of these troops and canot tell you anything from his previous ranks or current one for that matter so the SM had to go over everything briefly again with him and try and help him actually learn it all. We teach them the skill then practice it a few times over a few weeks and then test them on it without showing it to them again, this way we know they mastered the skill. Anyone can repeat what you just did but may not have retained it, ask these scouts a month later and 90% of them cannot remember what they learned or were taught. I really hate eagle mills and unfourtunately that is what our district is, we have the highest eagle rate but they are doing projects like one boy collected 500 pound of dog food and donated it to an organization, what did that project teach him? All he did was go to pet stores and grocery stores and ask to put up big boxes with signs he made asking for donated dry dog food and to which charity it was going. 30 days later he was done. Not challenging if you ask me.

 

Anyway thanks for all the great info guys his is awesome

 

Oh and the threatning a scout with the police thing was dealt with, the SM had a talk with her and told her it was very wrong of her to do that, that is was inappropriate. She claimed she was super tired her husband the acting SM said the same thing to him too, they both said they were exhuasted had not slept in 2 days and were frustrated and din't know what they were saying. The ASM also ripped a flashlight out of his hand and broke the strap on it, because he was mad he had the light on, she cannot sleep with lights on, he said he was afraid of the SM's in the other troop if he was to shine it in thier eyes, he said he thought they might be angry and attack him. Excuses if you ask me they were awesome guys not the violant type at all very laid back. they actually took the scout into the shared pavillion and sat with him for a few hours so the SM could get some sleep. But we did deal with it and told her she would not be an acting adult at any campout or function again, if another leader was not available they would have to change the dates. She accepted it and said she didn't want to be in that position anyway. Crazy people

[scoutldr]

If you are a new troop and your son is Historian, get him a cheap digital camera, and tell him to "document" everything! Then let him learn to download the pictures and create slide shows. (Even hook him up with a Photography MB counsellor). These can be VERY entertaining and valuable in 4-5 years when the guys start making Eagle. When our troop started, digital photography was still new and expensive and I wish we had more photos. Those who took photos are long gone...with the photos. Just think in 50 years what those photos will be worth to those inheriting your troop! (If the technology can still access the files!)

 

Just a thought.

[ScoutNut]

>>"It's interesting to hear people say they don't think it's the boys responsibility or the parents to pay for advancements, do the packs in your area work the same way?"

[boomerscout]

>>Just a note - You are the Advancement Chair. How a Troop puts it's finances together is NOT YOUR JOB. Your CC is in charge of the Troop Committee. This includes running the Committee meetings and shutting down discussions that get out of hand or go on to long. The CC is also in charge of all of the Troop Committee members, including the Advancement Chair and the Treasurer. Any discussions about how the Troop finances are run should be starting with the CC, the Treasurer, and the SM, NOT the Advancement Chair -- Scoutnut

[ScoutNut]

I don't know if I would say she got "pulled in". Looks to me like its more ran, and jumped in the middle.

 

From her posts it is clear to me that there are some big personality issues between her the CC.

 

She has stated that everyone is fully trained, however from some of the comments in her posts it sure does not sound like it.

 

It sounds like this Troop has more problems than just their budget. But, I agree with the CC, the Troop is in a convoluted, financial mess, they need to get a decent budget worked out, and they need to do some serious fundraising. Charging families for every little thing will not work.

[hsscouts]

I am actually not involved in any of this, all of it is from outside observations between the cc and the treasurer.

 

All I did as I stated here quite a few times was simply come and ask one question, it was my own personal question no one else in the troop asked it. I merely wanted to know had anyone heard of just having scout accounts and no gerneral fund or vice versa a general and no scouts accounts.

 

I was just curious I was somewhere with some members of our troop when this came up from someone else I simply wanted to be informed is all.

 

I do not have conflicts with the cc we are actually very good friends, our families hang out and have bbq's all the time. The cc is bipolar hence her emotional issues. I told those things because she has said to me as a freind she is afraid they are going to ask her to leave due to what has happened.

 

As stated before our troop has no other issues period we are one of the top troops in our district as far as boys being taught right and boys learning etc.

 

I as well as everyone else is fully trained, I am a district and council trainer as well.

 

Our budget is fine, it's perfect, it's been turned in and approved by the district, we just have not started our yearly fundraising yet is all. In reality our troop has about 600.00 in our general fund right now. She is mistaken on the 60.00 ranting is all the CC that is. She was told this evening there is money so let it go. We do not need anything but seam sealer right now, we have everything we need to run our troop efficiently until we finish popcorn at least.

 

Man it was just a question and people assume everything is falling apart, it's not I just was curious if anyone had ever heard of it because I could'nt find it on the internet.

 

I learned some things here and most of you were helpful not harmful.

 

Thanks and just let it go stop badgering me and telling me over and over again we are failing ad we need a better budget and things are going down fast. We are fine I am not in the middle of anything I just personally wanted to know. No one else knows I was even here not even my husband. It was just a curious question is all. With obviously too much background info.

[scoutldr]

Unit budgets have to be "approved" by the District??? Never heard of that, either.

[hsscouts]

yes so we can sell popcorn, they have to say our budget is ok or we can't sell. Now they help you do a better one if your interested though. thier goal is to help us.

[shortridge]

I hope you got the information you needed, even if it wasn't the exact answer you were looking for.

 

You've described some situations that sound troubling to several people here. The nature of the Internet is such that an offhand comment can set off a jangling alarm in someone's head and spark a whole 'nother conversation. No one's trying to badger you, just offer some feedback and assistance.

 

One of the major issues to me is that the summer camp did not provide water at the program areas, over and above the ice-at-the-campsite issue. Hydration is extremely important, and should be encouraged - if not required! - by the staff and leaders throughout the day.

 

I'm also still confused by the financial picture you've presented, including several statements that directly contradict each other.

 

(1) "we as a troop have been told by the CC and the treasurer that we have as a troop have been "borrowing" from the boys seed accounts and now have almost depleted them."

 

(2) "However our troop account is in the negative (virtually that is)"

 

(3) "I just thought by doing away with the troop fund account for a little while the CC would stop saying a million times during the TR report that the troop itself has 60.00 and that we are so poor and we need money, blah blah blah, I think it comes down to the fact that someone just needs to stand up and tell her we know we don't have much money right now"

 

(4) "Our budget is fine, it's perfect, it's been turned in and approved by the district, we just have not started our yearly fundraising yet is all. In reality our troop has about 600.00 in our general fund right now."

 

Sorry if this comes across as badgering, but something doesn't quite seem to be right here.

[hsscouts]

It does sound crazy doesn't it I was talking to people and getting confused myself, I thought our account was negative the general fund that is, this is what I was being told, then I was hearing this weekend there was only 60.00 available, then my husband looked into the bank account at the bank and there is a balance of 580.00 with nothing pending, then we looked at the escrow and there is about 600.00 in there but our flag is pending so there is an actual balance of 400.00 there I think, there may be one other pending on that one but it would be only 200 leaving at least 200.00 there.

 

This was one reason people were talking about having one account instead of 2, on paper that is.

 

Our last treasurers report was this:

 

boy 1 - -27.00

boy 2 - -58.00

boy 3 - 0.00

boy 4 - 50.00

boy 5 - 50.00

boy 6 - 50.00

boy 7 - -25.00

boy 8 - 0.00

 

Troop fund - 60.00

 

out:

 

-360.00 - pizza cards

-25.00 - patrol patches

 

That's it that's how she explained it in that detail, she said the negatives were from expenses and awards, she keeps saying this at every meeting that we are borrowing from accounts to pay certain things, however the boys should have paid in my opinion for thier own pizza cards it whould have been split between them evenly. But she they say we are borrowing every month, but I don't see anything going out really, advancements and this fundraiser is all that has gone out, the reports are so generalized we don't know what's going on. She has super detailed records in her book and will gladly show us if we ask but we are only seeing our kids stuff not the whole shebang.

 

I know it's hard to convey what is going on it's hard for me to form my thoughts to make sense sometimes, it's confusing to me too on top of it all.

 

but see how the numbers don't match, the bank says 580.00 and her report says 210.00 positive? But when my husband questions the difference she says there are things out that haven't come in that we aren't looking at, well my thing is it's been 3 months since a check has come into that account, what is still pending 3 months later? I would as a treasurer be questioning that check being lost. it's only good for 90 days I think or maybe it's 12 months, it doesn't matter it still doesn't make sense.

 

Then there is the escrow balance that she says is 0.00 but has at least 200.00 in it.

 

There are issues I can see that (especially now that I write it out) I really need to see if I can find a sample treasurers report on the net so she can see how to tell us more at the meetings, it seems we just are not seeing the whole picture any of us that is.

 

I know everyone here is just trying to offer good advice it is just frustrating to hear over and over again that there is an issue and things are horrible etc. ok I know somethings not right that's why I came here let's move on to just giving good advice and stop telling me I should stay out of it I am just gathering info on my own to have a good idea what to say at the next meeting.

 

 

[nolesrule]

Why do you feel the boys should have paid for the purchase of inventory for fundraising? That's a troop operating expense. This time it was only $360, but what if the troop did , as an example, Christmas tree sales. You might have to lay out $1200 to get those trees on the lot. You'd think it would be appropriate for the boys to have to pay $150 each?

 

Perhaps you need to focus on fundraisers that don't require an investment and inventory to get started until your general fund has enough padding for such things. Things that only require preorders and commissions on sales. Popcorn preorder sales is one of them, but there are other programs out there as well.

 

Finally, it is in your best interest that a scout account never ever ever go negative. Zero is fine, but not negative. And never borrow from their balances. It's fiscally irresponsible. What happens when all the scouts, expecting to have positive balances, all decide that they want to use the balances in their accounts to pay for the next activity and you don't have enough money in the bank to actually follow through?

[hsscouts]

I know what you mean about the negative balances and borrowing from them as well, I totally can see the same thing.

 

I think everyone just figured it was them who should pay since they chose that fundraiser over a cheaper one we could have done. Good to know that's wrong

 

I was told last night my son is the one with the negative account of 58.00.

 

I was upset I had no idea he was negative this was the first I was hearing about it. She told me 10.00 of it was for advancement from crossover in March however my son had 60.00 in his account a few weeks before summer camp in May or June, so we were under the impression because again she never told us there were outstanding charges to his account that he had 60.00 to use for camp so we depleted it for that purpose, now she says we still owe for march. Not cool if you ask me personally, the other negatives are for similar reasons.

 

A breakdown roughly of his account was this:

 

10.00 for scout rank, 1 merit badge and a trailer repair.

25.00 for merit badges and tenderfoot rank.

28.00 for summer camp unexpected expenses.

 

I haven't had time to ask my hubby how much the trailer repair was because I know scout rank was no more than 3.00 total and the MB is 2.50 and she said all 8 boys split the cost of the repair, so 4.50 times 8 is 36.00 for that repair, I never heard about it so I wonder what it was for exactly.

 

Interesting how this stuff is working in my troop isn't it, it's sure so confusing to me and honestly I didn't think we should have been put in the negative for the 10.00 charge because we thought it had already come out of the 60.00 and were not informed of anything different but I also don't want to anger anyone.