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[Bob White]

I just remind people what the BSA program includes, I don't tell them what to do. I count on their personal integrity to do what they promised to do when they joined, and that's follow the program, not strangers on an internet forum, eh.

[Beavah]

Nah, mate, you're just another stranger on an internet forum who has an opinion about Scoutin', eh? Like most other folks, yeh have a perspective based on your personal experiences as a volunteer in a small midwestern council. That's a worthwhile perspective to share. Might resonate for some folks, and help a few. Wish you'd share it more.

 

But you're not a BSA spokesman, and have no special ability to speak on behalf of da BSA or to tell people what the BSA materials mean or the "program" includes. In fact, there's a few other contributors here who have or had yellow-tab and professional roles who I reckon are closer to the sources, meanin' and application of those materials, eh . And others who have professional backgrounds who can share insights into the BSA materials drawn from their areas of expertise. Still others are successful Scouters and parents, who share great insights into how they've used BSA materials in different ways to help kids. All those voices are good ones, eh?

 

Yours is a fine one, too. But it's not a privileged one.

 

To quote a good man the boys say I'm old enough to have known in person, "Blessed are the meek and humble, they shall inherit the earth."

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

I never claimed to be anything other than a stranger on the internet. That's why I have never said "listen to me". All I have urged is to follow the program. As far as the size of the council or the color of my tabs...since when do you have to be from a big council in order to follow the BSA Programs? Do you think different councils have different training syllabi or different BSA resources, or perhaps different policies?

 

Do you think that learning or doing is limited to gold tabs? Certainly you don't think that professionals have program answers that didn't come the same training and resources that volunteers have access to?

 

Good experience is great to share, but bad scouting does not equal good experience.

 

 

"Through wisdom is a house built; and by understanding it is established; and by knowledge shall every room be filled with precious and pleasant riches." ~Proverbs 24:3

 

 

BW

 

[BadenP]

Hey Bob since you like to quote scripture I think this one's perfect for you.

 

"Stop judging others and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them."- MT 7:1,2. Kinda says it all doesn't it Bob.

 

Instead of attacking Beavah listen to what he is trying to say to you, there are some real pearls of wisdom. If you want to be respected treat others with that same respect.

Guidelines or rules and even laws can be interpreted in different ways, we need first to find our commonalities and then work through the differences.

 

[Bob White]

The commomality is supposed to be that we all learn and lead the same programs (not always the same activities) based on the same Methods, policies and proceures. The commonality is that alll use the same training syllabi, and the same resources from the same BSA.

 

But of course that requires that we all follow that training and those resources, but some do not. And they account for nearly every problem shared on this and otther forums. You have never seen a post on this forum that included "i followed the program and it did not work!" That's because the program works really well when you follow it. Every problem in every case on this forum came from some inividual or group that did not follow a BSA program element, method or policy.

 

So the solution is not to stray further from the BSA program, but to move closer to it. to that end I and others frequently contrast what you and beavah and others have said to what the BSa program actually says either through program Method, policy or procedure.

 

I think if you honestly compared my post to your for instance you would find thaat I use the BSa resources as the authority in Scouting, where you and beavah for that matter often use yourselves or your experience as tha authority. That would not be so bad if your 'experience followed the stated methods and policies of Scouting, but their rarely do.

 

Anyone can easily find posts where you claim to be an expert based on what you used to do in scouting. Then you criticize me for being a self-proclaimed expert. I have posted here for many years and I challange you to find a single post where I proclaim any such thing. The only source I have said is expert at the the BSA are the training and resources of the BSA, or others whom I have seen use the program correctly with consistantly positive results.

 

Your continues personal attacks are dreadfully weak and transparent. You say what you do, I post what the BSA says is right. That there exists a wide disparity between the two is not my fault nor the fault of the BSA's.

 

If you want the gap to narrow then you and he others in the same situation will need to move closer to the program, because I doubt you will see the program try to incororate the many variances in its methods and policies that some of you have created.

 

Remember to that when I post what the BSA says in contrast to you or beavah, or others, rarely do I expect to change your entrenched practices. I just want others to see how far off you are so that they can see the difference and choose their path accordingly. If they have been chosen well then I would expect them to follow the BSA program.

 

Ever notice how to a large extend we see the same folks posting problems over and over again? Why do you suppose that is?

 

By the way, I don't post bible passages that often. I do quote Shakespeare from time to time.

[BadenP]

I have never claimed to be a scouting expert either Bob, I just don't criticize others if a method someone is using is working for their unit because it didn't come out of a scout resource as long as it is line with the BSA program. If the laws of the land are subject to constant review and reinterpretation by the courts what makes you think that the same policies should not apply to BSA resources.

A scout unit is a living entity not a stagnant automoton. My last post was not an attack Bob just a request that you try to understand what Beavah was saying, that the resources are there to help guide our programs but sometimes even they don't have all the answers. That's why this forum exsists so scouters can exchange ideas about situations they have encountered and is not in any book.

[Bob White]

I do try try to understand each poster including you and beavah. It is just that sometimes I find documentally differencesbetween what some post and what the BSa program IS.

 

I did not create the disparity, I simply show what is in the BSA resources. That fact that some posters are frequently in contrast with those policies and procedures is is a reflection of their choices not of the scouting program or of my knowledge or lack of knowledge of the program, which posters, including you enjoy attacking in very coarse manner.

 

As far as you not holding yourself up as an expert. my posts almost always rely on a BSa resources as the authority. i have repeateltly asked you to share any BSa resource that supports your posts and the cosnstat source of authority you offer is only that you used to be a professional for almost 5 years. Which in comparison to the time spent by many volunteers on this forum is simply not am impressive amount of experience. I would be far more impressed if you could show BSA methods, policies, or proceures that supported your statememnts.

 

Thanks for the exchange of opinion.

BW

 

 

[Beavah]

It is just that sometimes I find documentally differencesbetween what some post and what the BSa program IS.

 

Aye, and there's da rub, eh?

 

You have no right or authority to say what the BSA program IS. You aren't a spokesman for the BSA, nor primary author of any of their materials. To claim to do so is just dishonest, IMO, and does no real service to Scouting.

 

Fact is, in the BSA, the closest thing we ever had to someone who legitimately had the authority to do what you claim was Bill Hillcourt, back when he was the primary author of the BSA core materials and held official positions. Bill was more humble, though. In the modern BSA, there's no longer a primary author to materials. It's more a collaboration, eh? Even those who used to be in program division positions couldn't always speak authoritatively to the meanin' of individual documents written or edited by others, and many of our authors of materials don't necessarily agree 100% with the Irving Office interpretation of "the program" on individual points.

 

So yeh can imagine my wonderment that you can claim authority on the materials that no one else has, eh?

 

I understand that there's comfort in strictly regimented document-driven notions of what to do. Wash your hands this way, fill out this form that way, and all will be right. I just figure that the timeless values of the Pharisees aren't da ones the BSA was talkin' about, eh? Or, since yeh prefer Shakespeare, "The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."

 

Anyone who's been around any length of time knows that the BSA itself has said on many occasions "we followed the program and it did not work!" Most recently, in the words of Bob M. and the sacking of the various program divisions at HQ.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Just for the record Bob I have 25 years as a volunteer leader including WL, CM, ASM, SM, Advisor, CC, COR, UC, Council Commisioner,and as you constantly bring up 5 years as a DE and Sr. DE is that enuf experience for you bucko? So I do have some background in scouting on which I can rely.

[Gold Winger]

"You have no right or authority to say what the BSA program IS."

 

At the risk of making people's heads explode, Bob does have the right and one needs no authority to say what something is when all one does is repeat what the entity has already stated. All Bob does is quote chapter and verse of BSA publications. It has been few, if any, times that BeeDub has offered any personal interpretations of BSA publications other than to say, "accept it as written." No nuances, no hidden meanings, no "could they possibly mean . . ", just take it as it is written.

[evmori]

Here's how I see it. There is nothing wrong with stating chapter & verse from a BSA publication. Where the rub comes is when the poster stating chapter & verse tosses in their interpretation of that chapter & verse as the final authority on that chapter & verse.

 

There are many BSA policies & rules & regs that are open to interpretation. And there could be many interpretations that are correct and there are many that could be wrong. That is where discussions & forums like these help us wade through.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

It requires neither right nor athority to be able to read, attend training, apply the Scouting program, or to share the contents of the BSA resources.

 

I think if there is any personal attribute that is related to our differences it is the choices we make to keep one's word and follow the rules of the game. It is not our game. It belongs to the BSA they determine its elements and the volunteers agree to deliver it, not change it at their personal whim.

 

The BSA provides the same training and resources for everyone to use, but for some reason some people join the team but refuse to learn the game.

 

Beavah

It would seem you never met Bill Hillcourt. I had the pleasure of dining with him on a few ocassions. Hillcourt was not the quiet man you suggest. He was very set in his beliefs and undeerstanding of Scouting and he was not patient with those who did not follow the Patrol Method and the Scouting Program. He was not humble about it at all. He understood the program and he expected the unit leaders and other volunteers to follow it.

 

By the way, you continue to write things that simply have no basis in truth. "So yeh can imagine my wonderment that you can claim authority on the materials that no one else has, eh?"

 

If I have ever claimed authority on the materials then you show folks where that was. There is a search engine on this sight. Find a single post where I claim to be an authority.

 

I have always attributed the authority to the BSA. It's their program. Lots of volunteers have been involved in developing it over the years but I have NEVER claimed authority over it. That was a gross and purposeful misrepresentation you made, and it is unfortunate that you so frequently resort to that kind of embellishment in order create support for your views.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, BobWhite, there's no need for anybody to use da search feature, eh? We can do it from memory, starting from this thread where yeh claimed to know what the BSA program IS (emphasis yours).

 

We all can read BSA materials on our own, eh? I reckon all of us here are literate, even if some of us talk funny. Few of us need yeh to provide random quotes. What yeh seem not to understand is the difference between materials, the program, and when you are makin' a personal interpretation of the program. In your writin', it gets all muddled together.

 

Returnin' to the subject of this thread, there is a tool, the Unit Money-Earning Application, which has some guidance on the back of the form. One tool, though, isn't the whole program. The actual relationships are more complex, which is why folks who have served in professional positions in the BSA keep tryin' to back you away from your seemingly definitive and extreme statements.

 

So, generally speakin', it's fine for a youth member working an Eagle Scout project to solicit funds for the project. It's OK for a unit like Pack283's to take advantage of somethin' like the WalMart or larger grocery chain local grants program by solicitin' those entities, because it doesn't conflict with FOS and improves the quality of Scouting in an area. It's fine for Chartered Organizations to solicit their own membership to support their scouting program, and nobody in the world would object to a unit solicitin' necessary equipment to help a handicapped scout participate. Almost every unit takes advantage of scouting and youth program discounts from vendors, special treatment at campgrounds, etc., and most aren't afraid to ask if such is available or would be considered. And most of us shed a tear and crack a proud smile at times when it's just fine for boys to solicit help for a lad in their troop who has cancer, or care packages for our troops overseas.

 

Someone readin' the Unit Money Earning Application might think differently. Someone readin' other materials that talk about a scout payin' his own way might think that Camperships and ScoutReach are not allowed. Someone readin' materials talking about people receivin' fair value for fundraisin' might believe sellin' popcorn or too-expensive-candy or first aid kits aren't permitted. But really only certain things run afoul of the rules, and merit a conversation with the unit leadership. Those folks who represent the BSA make those decisions in their area. In doin' so, they also define the program and how its applied, not just the printed materials.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White]

Beavahm Sorry but your memory has not served you well in the past I woud rather doubt that you or I can rely on its accuracy now or in the future.

 

InfoScouter was kind enough to type up the related information. Youth and adults at the unt level are not to solicite donations for individual or unit activities.

 

Them's the rules, eh!

 

There is no reason for a unit to not be able to plan a program and budget expenses without soliciting donations.

Again nothing keeps a unit from using its resources within the unit and the chartering organization, or from accepting help for their program if it is offered. What is prohibited is soliciting donations (nice words for 'begging') from the community for unit needs, which was exactly what Pack283 was asking about.

 

 

[Nike]

If I could interject, what is the name of the publication which covers fundraising for BSA units? Is there one publication or is it spread around hither, thither, and yon?

 

Not being Miss Smarty Pants, but we came up with a fund raising idea and I want to make sure we haven't gone completely off the reservation.