parking cars for a fundraiser...

[Bob White]

You do not have the authority to use the name or images of the BSA unless authorized to do so. Being allowed access to buy it does not give you authority to use it as you please. This is not a pair of jeans. You are taliking about licensed and controled images of a private organization.

 

Again you can learn this information at adult leader basic training and in the Insignia Guide

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[packsaddle]

I own an official Mets hat and windbreaker (mostly to needle my daughter - My Entire Team Sucks) and my daughter owns an official Yankees jacket. They're ours and we'll darn well wear them wherever we please for whatever purpose, even while extorting parking fees on behalf of the troop.

If non-BSA members purchase official BSA shirts from a department store somewhere (and we can still do this around here), there is no legal limitation I know of that applies to them with regard to how or where they wear the shirts - including a gay pride parade or down the runway as a male stripper for some women's club, soliciting dollars stuffed into their official BSA garters.

As a matter of fact, it's been my experience that many women find uniforms attractive. H'mm, maybe I should think about this some more.

[evmori]

Heck, a non-BSA member can purchase a BSA shirt from a Scout Shop! And they can wear it to a KKK rally is they so please! Once I buy it, it's mine! I can wear it where ever and when ever I please! The BSA can try all they want to stop me but they won't have a leg to stand on!

 

 

[Bob White]

I have given the resources where you can see that you your personal opinion does not match the facts. If that still doesn't work for you ask your council's scout executive.

 

Just because you own the shirt does not allow you to use it in any way you want. If you believe you can use that Mets shirt to suggest that the you are a member of the Mets and that the the Mets support a product service or cause, you would be wrong.

[evmori]

I own a Pittsburgh Steeler replica jersey. I can wear it anywhere I please! And I'm not a member of the Steeler organization.

 

Anyone can buy an official BSA shirt and wear it anywhere! Gay pride rally, KKK cross burning, PETA rally!

 

Show me chapter & verse where it says it can't.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[highcountry]

It becomes confusing and I agree with Beavah about trademark law getting out of hand and purchasing the shirt. While I would not agree someone wearing the BSA shirt while trying to raise funds involving a raffle for a house of ill repute, one needs to draw the line at what is reasonable and the intent of BSA. And if I buy the shirt, where do I need to apply for permission to wear it ? At troop meetings and activites ? What if I stop in the local grocery store on a way to a meeting with it on and am seen donating into a kettle for the salvation army ? If I stop to get gasoline on the way to an activity do I have to take the shirt off when entering the station to pay unless I got permission ? My point is this can get ridiculous. Will I have my scouts wear class A uniform if we were to have a wet tshirt contest as a fundraiser (we obviously wouldn't)....no, would I have them wear it when we sell wreaths and candles in the fall....yes ! Rule 5 of the money earning application realates to not selling the merits of scouting as a method in selling products, yet it is one of the main selling points thay want scouts to use to peddle their overpriced popcorn. I think this gets back to leading by example. Rule number one is somewhat ridiculous, having a demonstrated need for the funds and not simply taking advantage of an opportunity because it is there. We have had and still sometimes get great fundraiser opportunities that come our way and we take advantage of them because typically at some other point funds get low and ussually at a time when there is little fund raising opportunity. We manage to stay out of the red and never keep any surplus long term, strike when the iron is hot.

Our scouts have no idea of the money earning application and some of the rules BSA tries to put on the adults on fundrasing so they have no idea if we shave corners to be a litle more efficient with the adult volunteers we do get vs BSA's overburden of rules and paperwork. At the end of the day, we give our scouts a variety of appropriate and benefical fund raisers for us and the community where everyone wins. The scouts learn to make it on their own steam and many in our community are waiting for our wreath sale our candle sale, firewood, and some of the concessions we have run. The boys take pride in achieving their funds needs and re-equipping the troop and the community realizes they have an active and positive troop in the community.

I'm sure some will hate to hear this but our troop has not done a money earning application in over a dozen years and perhaps longer, I have no idea who the scoutmaster was before the 2 previous to me so it could be even longer than 12 years. We have done the same fundraisers for the most part for years, they abide by the important cosniderations such as not infringing on a local merchant or competing with other nearby troops or doing something inappropraite or unsafe in the name of scouting etc. BSA wants you to go out and sell their popcorn with a uniform and sell the merits of scouting as a reason for the high price of the product, since that is AOK we wear uniforms and sell the merit of scouting and supporting the local troop on our fair priced wreaths.

[packsaddle]

You and I, Ed. We're going to save the first amendment!

I wish I had thought to wear my uniform to the recent Ann Coulter event....you know, to balance that gay pride rally down the road.

To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a shirt is just a shirt. Just because it has an official logo on it doesn't necessarily mean there is a claim of membership. If that was true, then there would be some formal kind of agreement attached to the purchase. I'll use my old Yankees shirt to scrub our kennel on YouTube. I doubt I'll hear a peep from the NY Yankees.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[evmori]

We ain't violatin' some copyright law by mentioning the Bill of Rights, are we packsaddle?

[GernBlansten]

If they had a label on the shirt or form you had to sign at purchase that restricted use to only official BSA use, perhaps they would have a leg to stand on. But anyone can buy the shirt, and not be held to any rule the BSA might want us to follow while wearing it. Now as a volunteer in the organization that signed an application that said I would follow BSA policies, that binds us scouters to BSA rules.

 

I've been seen on non-BSA outtings wearing my switchbacks.

[Beavah]

I've been seen on non-BSA outtings wearing my switchbacks.

 

Ach, shame on yeh lad!

 

Don't yeh know that particular color of green is someone's intellectual property? Da BSA owns all those photons in the universe!

 

Why, you're the same as a thieving, murdering pirate you are!

 

Beavah

 

[Horizon]

We have two issues going on here.

 

First: Troop fundraising events, and what uniform is allowed for those events. Based on Bob White's post, you have to ask your Council for permission for the uniform.

 

Second: The use of BSA logos for money making events. You are right, you can wear your team jersey - I will be wearing my Angels shirt tonight when I go to the game. However, if I put on that Jersey and film a commercial - the Angels can sue me for the earnings. That is why television shows have to get permission to use certain logos, and why you do NOT see random logos on TV. Many companies will not allow it without payment, or without control over how it is used. If you are getting money, the owner of the trademark/copyright gets to step in.

 

I have shut down YouTube videos using my software product, where my product was visible in the production.

If you watch the deleted scenes from some movies, you will see blurred bits on actor clothing - that is because they never got permission to use the logo when they made that scene.

 

You will sometimes see athletes in commercials with a generic football shirt on, not their actual team jersey. Guess why? They do not want to have to pay money to their team or the NFL.

 

The BSA has the right and obligation to protect their uniform. If you are doing something for money, they have the right to come after every penny you earned doing it. This is NOT a free speech issue, it is one of copyright and trademark law.

 

The BSA wants their cut.

 

Now - the prohibition against the use of the uniform for NON-monetary events is another debate.

[Bob White]

It's not much of a debate. the issue is not soley about fundraising, it is abot the BSA rights to control the use oif their image. The BSA uniform is a protected representation of the BSA program.

 

AS I mentioned before the BSA does not allow the use of the BSA uniform name or images for the promotion of a specific political party, political cause, or candidate, without the express permisssion of the BSA.

 

Certainly you all must realize that when you wear the uniform or the symbols of scouting that you are looked at by others as a representative of Scouting and its values, even if legally you have no such role or authority.

 

As you know not all scouters have the good sense to use that representation in a responsible manner. So the common and logical course to protect ones image and protected property is to say 'here is when you can use it, and here is when you can't, and for anything else you must ask permission'.

 

To suggest that you have to ask permission to wear a uniform to a scout meeting is ridululous, and it shows why it is necesarry for the BSA to be able to retain control of how their image is used.

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

Ya I'm from Chicago "Vote early...vote often" and things get done differently down here. BUT if you look on the money earning form it cites and example of Bell ringing for the Salvation Army as being not approved because it is a third party. Should we then assume by what you say that the people that wrote that example were not taking into account that the Salvation Army does sponser units? I can park cars for the church, march in parades with the American Leigon and VFW, flip pancakes for the Knghts of Columbus, Lions or Kiwanis be they my CO but not ring bells for the Salvation Army?

LongHaul

 

[packsaddle]

Ed, I don't know about that but I'm guessing you are ripe for a subsciption to Mother Jones magazine, heh, heh.

But I guess we've had enough fun with this. As a member I do follow the rules of membership. And I know that if I abuse the display of BSA trademarks, etc., I'll risk some kind of response, possibly loss of membership.

And I'm sure there must be examples somewhere in which uniforms have been confiscated or in which court orders have prohibited the wearing of the uniform. Right? So...where are those examples? Anyone ever hear of this? Please, this inquiring mind wants to know.

[Beavah]

Oh, a few "cease and desist" letters here and there, eh? More likely a phonecall reminder.

 

Not quite sure what your question is, LH. Yah, the example with Salvation Army is assumin' Salvation Army is a third party, not a CO raisin' funds for a unit.

 

But it's all pretty funny grey zone. I expect most of us advise Eagle candidates to wear their uniform when workin' on a project, but a heck of a lot of projects are fundraisers and labor for 3rd parties, eh? Cub scouts wear their uniforms to school or to church, is that the school/church endorsing da BSA, or da BSA endorsing the school/church? It just gets ridiculous.

 

Given a tension between your property right (the shirt and pants belong to you) and the BSA's trademark, you'd really have to go pretty far afield for the BSA to have an actionable claim. Da BSA already received the benefit from their trademark when they sold you the clothing and collected the profit. Yeh don't have to ask permission to wear your own pants, no matter what anyone claims.

 

Practically speakin', nobody's gonna say "boo" about wearin' uniforms at an appropriate unit fundraiser or CO function.

 

Beavah